British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Garbatellamike Oct 10th 2017 9:55 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12358135)
Could agree a range and make that contingent on the trade talks. They are linked, but it should not be an obstacle fir either side.

spot on mate - a bit of flexibility could unlock it. I hope the actual talks are moving that way despite the ridiculous media posturing that is getting the attention.

Golden Years Oct 10th 2017 10:12 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12358124)
I get that the trade deal is complicated. But the divorce bill, citizens rights, NI, all no brainers. Could have been sorted Week 1.

Probably right about the timing.

What is the "divorce" bill and what is it made up of? Plenty of numbers around, all different, all without detail.

As to the citizens' rights, the only impediment seems to be that the EU residents in the UK want to have the ECJ as their final arbiter which makes no sense. Will the UK citizens left in the EU be able to use the UK Supreme Court as their final arbiter? No, thought not.

The Ulster border problem is simple, don't have one. As long as the external border controls into the UK and into the Republic are up to scratch then the local crossing trade is meaningless.

Annetje Oct 10th 2017 10:26 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12358171)
What is the "divorce" bill and what is it made up of? Plenty of numbers around, all different, all without detail.

As to the citizens' rights, the only impediment seems to be that the EU residents in the UK want to have the ECJ as their final arbiter which makes no sense. Will the UK citizens left in the EU be able to use the UK Supreme Court as their final arbiter? No, thought not.

The Ulster border problem is simple, don't have one. As long as the external border controls into the UK and into the Republic are up to scratch then the local crossing trade is meaningless.

You should be in Brussels now (take your ball with you, May's one is missing)

EMR Oct 10th 2017 10:43 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12358171)
What is the "divorce" bill and what is it made up of? Plenty of numbers around, all different, all without detail.

As to the citizens' rights, the only impediment seems to be that the EU residents in the UK want to have the ECJ as their final arbiter which makes no sense. Will the UK citizens left in the EU be able to use the UK Supreme Court as their final arbiter? No, thought not.

The Ulster border problem is simple, don't have one. As long as the external border controls into the UK and into the Republic are up to scratch then the local crossing trade is meaningless.

As a brexiter what about control of our borders did you not understand.
Why should the Irish end Freedom of Movement just to satisfy you.
You should look up the value of Anglo Irish cross border trade.

DaveLovesDee Oct 11th 2017 2:52 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike (Post 12358112)
agree that but we had those EU rights before the EU existed. They are rights not just EU rights. If you are saying we qon't have those rights if we'd never joined the EU then I think that is not right.

Not quite right.

If you wanted to work in another European country, you needed a work permit (and usually a job offer). The EU made doing so much easier by making as easy as looking for a job in your home country.

The problem for some Leavers came when large numbers of East European nationals gained the rights to live and work in other EU countries. Especially when the UK decided not to implement most of the controls they could have imposed (and which other countries did impose).


Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12358171)
What is the "divorce" bill and what is it made up of? Plenty of numbers around, all different, all without detail.

It's not a divorce. The bill is to cover things like money the UK had agreed to pay up til the end of the current funding cycle in 2022 (which has been allocated to projects within that timescale), and the future pensions of UK MEPs.


As to the citizens' rights, the only impediment seems to be that the EU residents in the UK want to have the ECJ as their final arbiter which makes no sense. Will the UK citizens left in the EU be able to use the UK Supreme Court as their final arbiter? No, thought not.
The ECJ is the arbiter of EU rights for anyone in the EU, Brit or not. It makes sense for them to continue to safeguard the rights of EU nationals given that one of the UK government's intentions is to be able to wipe out any former EU law they choose to, without Parliamentary agreement.

Your UK Supreme Court argument for UK nationals abroad is a straw-man argument.


The Ulster border problem is simple, don't have one. As long as the external border controls into the UK and into the Republic are up to scratch then the local crossing trade is meaningless.
For all intents and purposes, there is no border there now other than a few signs stating the you're entering whichever country you're going to, and reminding drivers that the speed limits are in mph/km (as appropriate).

You're suggesting that Ireland effectively leaves the EU as the UK does. When did they give the UK the right to decide that? When, even, did they ask their own residents?

mrken30 Oct 11th 2017 3:04 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12358288)
It's not a divorce. The bill is to cover things like money the UK had agreed to pay up til the end of the current funding cycle in 2022 (which has been allocated to projects within that timescale), and the future pensions of UK MEPs.

I don't see why Europe should have to pay MEP pensions, once the UK leaves the EU.

Sancho Oct 11th 2017 5:42 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Assanah Oct 11th 2017 5:47 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12358171)

The Ulster border problem is simple, don't have one. As long as the external border controls into the UK and into the Republic are up to scratch then the local crossing trade is meaningless.

What don't you understand about the end of the empire? Ireland is not your colony. The Ireland-Uk border is btw also a border of the EU. The EU is also not a British colony. So the border will be closed and protected. You will show your passports and visas and you will be polite and respectful, following Irish and EU laws when you cross the border into foreign territory. Your trucks will wait for inspection and show all necessary papers, deal with all the extras red tape that Brexit will bring, pay all the extra costs the Brexit will bring before they will cross into EU territory.

Red Eric Oct 11th 2017 8:07 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12358171)
As to the citizens' rights, the only impediment seems to be that the EU residents in the UK want to have the ECJ as their final arbiter which makes no sense. Will the UK citizens left in the EU be able to use the UK Supreme Court as their final arbiter? No, thought not.

This is a false equivalent - the correct one would be if EU citizens in the UK wanted the supreme court in their home country to act as final arbiter.

Speaking as a UK citizen residing in the EU, I certainly don't want the UK Supreme Court as "my" final arbiter if there are disputes either with the UK government or with the Portuguese government about the application of EU law with regard to matters which might affect me. Not that I think either don't do a fine job in the main but as a safeguard to correct and consistent application throughout the member states, final decisions on matters of Community law should be made by a court outside the individual country interpreting and applying that law.

Anyway, it would appear that the EU might be prepared to concede on the ECJ itself and May has already indicated that she accepts it must be a court outside the UK on which the ECJ may have indirect influence, so unless there's a massive backtracking, matters will still be referred to a court outside the UK for final arbitration and bang goes the idea of full judicial independence.

Annetje Oct 11th 2017 9:10 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Annetje (Post 12358062)
Talking about whipping up fear, May seems to have said she has no idea whether EU citizens will be allowed to stay in UK in case of ''No deal''.
Would that mean all UK expats should start packing their bags ?
Or is it just more scare mongering ?

Theresa May says she 'doesn't know' if EU citizens will be able to stay in Britain in a no-deal Brexit

May admitted that she "didn't know" what a no-deal Brexit would mean for the rights of EU citizens in Britain, but insisted that she and the government want them to stay.

Maybe she wants them to stay but without any rights ?

In addition to that :

On the status of British nationals in Europe if no deal is reached, she said: "We don't know what would happen to them. The EU member states would have to consider what their approach would be to those UK citizens.
"By definition, if there isn't a deal we won't have been able to agree with the EU what happens to UK citizens currently living in countries like Spain and Italy and other members of the EU."


ww.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-second-eu-referendum-brexit-refuses-to-say-how-vote-remain-leave-a7993456.html


Anyway, it's the Will Of The People :nod:

Shard Oct 11th 2017 9:29 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mrken30 (Post 12358292)
I don't see why Europe should have to pay MEP pensions, once the UK leaves the EU.

It's amazing that something like the pensions of a few hundred public servants can add up to a significant enough figure to even be part of the debate. How golden are these pensions?!!

Annetje Oct 11th 2017 9:33 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mrken30 (Post 12358292)
I don't see why Europe should have to pay MEP pensions, once the UK leaves the EU.

A bit like BP paying my pension ...


Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12358439)
It's amazing that something like the pensions of a few hundred public servants can add up to a significant enough figure to even be part of the debate. How golden are these pensions?!!

Ask Farage :lol:

Golden Years Oct 11th 2017 10:52 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12358288)

It's not a divorce. The bill is to cover things like money the UK had agreed to pay up til the end of the current funding cycle in 2022 (which has been allocated to projects within that timescale), and the future pensions of UK MEPs.

OK, but put figures on those obligations. Then deduct the UK's portion of hard assets acquired during our membership and our contributions to the ECB and the 20 billion to be paid during the transition period.
What is the final number?



Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12358288)
The ECJ is the arbiter of EU rights for anyone in the EU, Brit or not. It makes sense for them to continue to safeguard the rights of EU nationals given that one of the UK government's intentions is to be able to wipe out any former EU law they choose to, without Parliamentary agreement.

Your UK Supreme Court argument for UK nationals abroad is a straw-man argument.

Your mis-interpretation of the Great Repeal Bill is a real straw man but as far as the ECJ is concerned I don't understand why people who move to another country feel they should take their legal structure with them. Perhaps the solution is two fold, have a joint ECJ-Supreme Court final arbiter for EU nationals who are already in the UK and then any arriving after Brexit have to make do with the same final arbiter as UK nationals. Bureaucratic but workable and the numbers affected by the joint body would naturally decline.


Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12358288)
For all intents and purposes, there is no border there now other than a few signs stating the you're entering whichever country you're going to, and reminding drivers that the speed limits are in mph/km (as appropriate).

You're suggesting that Ireland effectively leaves the EU as the UK does. When did they give the UK the right to decide that? When, even, did they ask their own residents?

There are no plans to change the Common Travel Area so UK and Irish citizens will continue after Brexit to be able to travel, live and work in each others country. Most trade will go through ports which are or will be equipped to deal with cross border trade. The volume of trade across the Eire/Ulster border is very small and could be easily monitored electronically.

Golden Years Oct 11th 2017 10:57 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12358340)
What don't you understand about the end of the empire? Ireland is not your colony. The Ireland-Uk border is btw also a border of the EU. The EU is also not a British colony. So the border will be closed and protected. You will show your passports and visas and you will be polite and respectful, following Irish and EU laws when you cross the border into foreign territory. Your trucks will wait for inspection and show all necessary papers, deal with all the extras red tape that Brexit will bring, pay all the extra costs the Brexit will bring before they will cross into EU territory.

Common Travel Area between Ireland and the United Kingdom


The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. You do not need to have a passport in order to enter the other country

EMR Oct 11th 2017 11:05 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Golden Years (Post 12358481)

You are forgetting the EU citizens who also live in Ireland and travel freely between the two countries.
Or those in years to come who arrive in Ireland and then onto the UK.
Nice to see you realise that the UK cannot close the Irish border.
You really do need to look at the value of cross border trade before making even more silly statements.


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