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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

amideislas Sep 4th 2017 3:49 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by olivefarmer (Post 12331033)
I posted this article before on poverty in Spain. So easy to get the wrong picture basing your experience on how busy a holiday destination airport is, the beaches and bars, how much villas with pools are selling for......

https://elpais.com/elpais/2013/03/24...11_984614.html

The number of people living in extreme poverty (estimated at 30 percent of the average income, 3,650 euros a year) is also growing and has already reached 6.4 percent of the population. This is up four percent from 2008 - totaling around three million people.

A lot has changed in 4 years (obviously). Spain in particular now boasts one of the fastest growing economies, and fastest employment growth (nobody expected that in 2013). And as I keep pointing out, there's a LOT of room to improve (grow). And Spain isn't the only one... In fact, virtually all eurozone economies are moving from strength to strength.

Eurozone economy ‘firing on all cylinders’ | The Telegraph

Eurozone economic confidence hits pre-crisis high | FT.com

Eurozone Growth Spreads, Helped by Dutch, Italian Economies | Wall Street Journal
Currency area is becoming less reliant on Germany and Spain

Euro zone August business growth keeps up solid pace | Reuters
Euro zone business growth maintained a solid clip in August, driven by the best manufacturing performance in 6-1/2 years despite a strong euro, easily offsetting a mild slowdown in services growth, a key private sector survey showed on Wednesday.

And for a final ironic blow; insult on top of (self-imposed) injury.

As the UK economy sputters, it's all systems go in the eurozone
Far from the vision of a strident UK distancing itself from a failing union, Brexit may deliver the opposite


Anyway, here's another ironic Brexit chuckle:

‘Brexit’ Threatens Subsidies for U.K.’s Landed Gentry, and Queen | New York Times

SANDRINGHAM, England — It is a club that includes some of the world’s richest people. There are dukes, sheikhs, flamboyant entrepreneurs — even Queen Elizabeth II and other members of the royal family.

What they have in common besides ownership of some of Britain’s finest estates — adorned with stately homes, manicured gardens and, sometimes, racing stables — is their legal status as farmers, which means they are on the dole for European Union farm subsidies.


Read More

la mancha Sep 4th 2017 5:13 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by iano (Post 12330990)
You know the EU doesn't control an individual member state's fiscal policy, welfare policy, non-EU immigration, housing policy, social services, public services etc etc all of which have a direct, or indirect influence on levels of relative poverty.

How has the EU, per se, created your alleged rise in european poverty ?

What EU 'strategies and initiatives' have not worked ? Genuine question.

Lisbon Strategy 2000

In general terms, we can argue that the quantitative achievements of the Lisbon Strategy were inconsistent. Though there was significant employment creation in the four-year period immediately prior to the start of the second cycle (2008-2010), other indicators were far less positive, and it seems very likely that the objectives would not have been met in 2010 even if the recession hadn’t taken place. Moreover, some social indicators appear to have stagnated, with at-risk-of–poverty rates being a particular cause for concern. Other indicators recording the increase of inequalities question the overall results of the strategy.

2010

The Lisbon Strategy failed to eradicate poverty in Europe, one of the objectives set for 2010. The ETUC (European Trade Union Confederation) is of the opinion that a strong mobilization and a determined commitment are more than ever necessary to combat poverty. This mobilisation must take place simultaneously on two fronts: social protection and employment

Europe 2020 Initiative

Between 2009 (when the Strategy was drafted) and the end of 2012, the number of people experiencing material deprivation, living in jobless households or at risk of poverty increased by 10 million and reached 124 million people. The implication was that in several years the number of poor expanded by figures equal to medium size EU countries, such as Belgium or the Czech Republic.

Today

In its stocktaking of the Europe 2020 strategy, the European Commission acknowledges there is no sign of a rapid improvement in the situation and expects that the number of people at risk of poverty might remain at about 100 million by 2020.

Free movement of people + a currency that locks member states into a one-size-fits-all zone = 100 plus million people living in poverty on low wages

EMR Sep 4th 2017 5:16 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12331085)
Lisbon Strategy 2000

In general terms, we can argue that the quantitative achievements of the Lisbon Strategy were inconsistent. Though there was significant employment creation in the four-year period immediately prior to the start of the second cycle (2008-2010), other indicators were far less positive, and it seems very likely that the objectives would not have been met in 2010 even if the recession hadn’t taken place. Moreover, some social indicators appear to have stagnated, with at-risk-of–poverty rates being a particular cause for concern. Other indicators recording the increase of inequalities question the overall results of the strategy.

2010

The Lisbon Strategy failed to eradicate poverty in Europe, one of the objectives set for 2010. The ETUC (European Trade Union Confederation) is of the opinion that a strong mobilization and a determined commitment are more than ever necessary to combat poverty. This mobilisation must take place simultaneously on two fronts: social protection and employment

Europe 2020

Between 2009 (when the Strategy was drafted) and the end of 2012, the number of people experiencing material deprivation, living in jobless households or at risk of poverty increased by 10 million and reached 124 million people. The implication was that in several years the number of poor expanded by figures equal to medium size EU countries, such as Belgium or the Czech Republic.

Today

In its stocktaking of the Europe 2020 strategy, the European Commission acknowledges there is no sign of a rapid improvement in the situation and expects that the number of people at risk of poverty might remain at about 100 million by 2020.

Free movement of people + a currency that locks member states into a one-size-fits-all zone = 100 plus million people living in poverty on low wages

What gives you the idea that the EU can buck a global trend of increasing numbers living in poverty.
How will you explain why the numbers living in poverty in your post brexit UK world continue to rise.

la mancha Sep 4th 2017 5:22 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12331039)
A lot has changed in 4 years (obviously). Spain in particular now boasts one of the fastest growing economies, and fastest employment growth (nobody expected that in 2013). And as I keep pointing out, there's a LOT of room to improve (grow). And Spain isn't the only one... In fact, virtually all eurozone economies are moving from strength to strength.

Eurozone economy ‘firing on all cylinders’ | The Telegraph

Eurozone economic confidence hits pre-crisis high | FT.com

Eurozone Growth Spreads, Helped by Dutch, Italian Economies | Wall Street Journal
Currency area is becoming less reliant on Germany and Spain

Euro zone August business growth keeps up solid pace | Reuters
Euro zone business growth maintained a solid clip in August, driven by the best manufacturing performance in 6-1/2 years despite a strong euro, easily offsetting a mild slowdown in services growth, a key private sector survey showed on Wednesday.

And for a final ironic blow; insult on top of (self-imposed) injury.

As the UK economy sputters, it's all systems go in the eurozone
Far from the vision of a strident UK distancing itself from a failing union, Brexit may deliver the opposite


Anyway, here's another ironic Brexit chuckle:

‘Brexit’ Threatens Subsidies for U.K.’s Landed Gentry, and Queen | New York Times

SANDRINGHAM, England — It is a club that includes some of the world’s richest people. There are dukes, sheikhs, flamboyant entrepreneurs — even Queen Elizabeth II and other members of the royal family.

What they have in common besides ownership of some of Britain’s finest estates — adorned with stately homes, manicured gardens and, sometimes, racing stables — is their legal status as farmers, which means they are on the dole for European Union farm subsidies.


Read More


June 2017

Poverty is not reduced in Mallorca despite the tourist boom. The demand for assistance to the Red Cross in cases of social emergency is maintained due to the high precariousness of the labor market - The request for food remains by far the largest, with three out of four users.

Mallorca is heading towards its fourth tourist season of record and in spite of this the poverty continues without weakening in the island . According to the Red Cross , the demand for help in cases of social emergency does not show any appreciable cutbacks, mainly due to the precariousness of the labor market in the archipelago, with a high proportion of temporary contracts and low wages.

La pobreza no se reduce en Mallorca pese al boom turístico - Diario de Mallorca

June 2017

Poverty is burning, according to Caritas: half of its users have received aid for three years

The entity handled the last year to 1,784 people, higher than the one registered in 2015, when they were 1,527.

Half of the users of Caritas de Menorca have been receiving aid for more than three years and six out of ten are Spanish. The poverty continues without giving respite and although there is an economic upturn, the most disadvantaged people fail to see the light.

https://menorca.info/menorca/local/2...do-ayudas.html

By the way, French and Italian unemployment rose in July.

You can fool yourself but you cannot fool anyone else. The facts speak for themselves.

Annetje Sep 4th 2017 5:34 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Hey Mancha

Have you considered seeking help for this obsession ? Not sure it exists, but you might give it a thought (or 2) ...:ohmy:

EMR Sep 4th 2017 5:36 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12331099)
June 2017

Poverty is not reduced in Mallorca despite the tourist boom. The demand for assistance to the Red Cross in cases of social emergency is maintained due to the high precariousness of the labor market - The request for food remains by far the largest, with three out of four users.

Mallorca is heading towards its fourth tourist season of record and in spite of this the poverty continues without weakening in the island . According to the Red Cross , the demand for help in cases of social emergency does not show any appreciable cutbacks, mainly due to the precariousness of the labor market in the archipelago, with a high proportion of temporary contracts and low wages.

La pobreza no se reduce en Mallorca pese al boom turístico - Diario de Mallorca

June 2017

Poverty is burning, according to Caritas: half of its users have received aid for three years

The entity handled the last year to 1,784 people, higher than the one registered in 2015, when they were 1,527.

Half of the users of Caritas de Menorca have been receiving aid for more than three years and six out of ten are Spanish. The poverty continues without giving respite and although there is an economic upturn, the most disadvantaged people fail to see the light.

https://menorca.info/menorca/local/2...do-ayudas.html

By the way, French and Italian unemployment rose in July.

You can fool yourself but you cannot fool anyone else. The facts speak for themselves.

Which you have just confirmed, rising poverty is a global issue not just one for the EU or a post brexit UK.
I have just witnessed what can be best described as obscene levels of the wealth of a few contrasting with declining living standards of the majority.
Who is to blame , it's not the EU.
In the UK the government is suggesting that the salaries paid to the few at the top are linked to the average of those way below them.
Who is responsible for the current disparity, it's certainly not the EU, it's diddly squat to do with the Eurozone because we are not in it.

It's capitalism, adherence to free trade, free market politics ,deregulation in fact everything that our brexiters want more of.

amideislas Sep 4th 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
OK Good. It just seems that, as astronomical as you make it out to be, it should be visible... somewhere.

Me thinks something's amiss, because it's damned well hidden, which is something that normally doesn't happen even in the most successful economies. For example, for all the British "economic boom" the daily express screams about on a daily basis, on every visit I take to Britain, poverty (and generally, just lower standards of living) isn't anywhere near as hidden. I'll keep looking though.

In the mean time, the Eurozone economy seems to be doing very well. Especially considering that it's (allegedly) amongst the world's most impoverished, and was supposed to be in total collapse by now.

Go figure.

DaveLovesDee Sep 4th 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12331099)
June 2017

Poverty is not reduced in Mallorca despite the tourist boom. The demand for assistance to the Red Cross in cases of social emergency is maintained due to the high precariousness of the labor market - The request for food remains by far the largest, with three out of four users.

Mallorca is heading towards its fourth tourist season of record and in spite of this the poverty continues without weakening in the island . According to the Red Cross , the demand for help in cases of social emergency does not show any appreciable cutbacks, mainly due to the precariousness of the labor market in the archipelago, with a high proportion of temporary contracts and low wages.

La pobreza no se reduce en Mallorca pese al boom turístico - Diario de Mallorca

Much of the money tourists spend doesn't stay in the pockets of Majorca businesses very long. Increased tourism increases the amount of alcohol and other consumables bought by the bars and hotels. Much of which has a very low profit margin.


June 2017

Poverty is burning, according to Caritas: half of its users have received aid for three years

The entity handled the last year to 1,784 people, higher than the one registered in 2015, when they were 1,527.

Half of the users of Caritas de Menorca have been receiving aid for more than three years and six out of ten are Spanish. The poverty continues without giving respite and although there is an economic upturn, the most disadvantaged people fail to see the light.

https://menorca.info/menorca/local/2...do-ayudas.html
And there are Brits in the UK who've never done anything other than receive their benefits payments for the last 10 years.


By the way, French and Italian unemployment rose in July.
Could that be due to the University students joining everyone else in looking for employment?


You can fool yourself but you cannot fool anyone else. The facts speak for themselves.
Facts speak, it's the interpretation that sometimes isn't listened to.

la mancha Sep 4th 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Amazing to see what lengths you will all go to avoid the facts. As you say, we’re out of it. Have fun.

DaveLovesDee Sep 4th 2017 6:02 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12331127)
Amazing to see what lengths you will all go to avoid the facts. As you say, we’re out of it. Have fun.

Who's avoiding the facts? All anyone seems to be telling you is that the reality doesn't seem as widespread as the media makes it out to be. And where have we seen that before?.........

Novocastrian Sep 4th 2017 6:11 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12331127)
Amazing to see what lengths you will all go to avoid the facts. As you say, we’re out of it. Have fun.

Only technically. Welcome back to EFTA.

DaveLovesDee Sep 4th 2017 6:14 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12331136)
Only technically. Welcome back to EFTA.

We're not out of the EU yet though :p

Poor mancha. It's not going well for him, is it?

la mancha Sep 4th 2017 6:24 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12331130)
Who's avoiding the facts? All anyone seems to be telling you is that the reality doesn't seem as widespread as the media makes it out to be. And where have we seen that before?.........

My source of information re poverty is taken from EU sources, not the media.

My info re poverty in Mallorca is taken from Spanish media. Are they now not to be taken for fact?

You are being silly now. Give over and goodnight.

amideislas Sep 4th 2017 7:23 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Well, again, something appears to be amiss. There's so little evidence of it on the ground. That's all. You may be right, but I seriously suspect there's something really amiss in all of this. I'd have to believe if we were all impoverished like you claim, someone would notice.

Also, someone else offered similar "evidence" that if we have any kind of life at all (can take a holiday, have a car, one or more homes, etc), then we're likely to be in the .05% of the elite wealthy. I have to believe that's equally an exaggeration or complete misrepresentation, because it inherently implies the majority of us are impoverished. But we aren't.

You can't have it both ways. The vast majority of people are obviously "not impoverished". We can't all be simultaneously "impoverished".

It's called "cognitive dissonance". Look it up. It makes the whole premise seem pretty questionable.

But there's one other thing... If poverty is to be addressed, then wouldn't a growing economy be the only facilitator of that? A dwindling economy has never brought anyone out of poverty. So, if you even really gave a shit, I'd expect you to embrace the (undeniable) economic growth in the (allegedly impoverished) Eurozone. Unless of course, you actually have a different agenda. And I think that's more likely, given your historical narratives.

la mancha Sep 4th 2017 9:00 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12331161)
Well, again, something appears to be amiss. There's so little evidence of it on the ground. That's all. You may be right, but I seriously suspect there's something really amiss in all of this. I'd have to believe if we were all impoverished like you claim, someone would notice.

Also, someone else offered similar "evidence" that if we have any kind of life at all (can take a holiday, have a car, one or more homes, etc), then we're likely to be in the .05% of the elite wealthy. I have to believe that's equally an exaggeration or complete misrepresentation, because it inherently implies the majority of us are impoverished. But we aren't.

You can't have it both ways. The vast majority of people are obviously "not impoverished". We can't all be simultaneously "impoverished".

It's called "cognitive dissonance". Look it up. It makes the whole premise seem pretty questionable.

But there's one other thing... If poverty is to be addressed, then wouldn't a growing economy be the only facilitator of that? A dwindling economy has never brought anyone out of poverty. So, if you even really gave a shit, I'd expect you to embrace the (undeniable) economic growth in the (allegedly impoverished) Eurozone. Unless of course, you actually have a different agenda. And I think that's more likely, given your historical narratives.

I didn’t say the vast majority of Europeans are impoverished and never have done – just 120 million and rising with no solution in sight.

No different agenda – just facts again.

German poverty rising - despite economic growth

German poverty rising - despite economic growth | Germany | DW | 02.03.2017

It just isn't working, is it?


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