British Expats

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   Take it Outside! (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/)
-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

lutonlad May 12th 2017 11:52 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12251227)
I wasn't talking about my parents - it just floated around generally, though, in that dismissive manner that many older people have about "the youth of today", no matter what fine upstanding example they may be talking to at the time.

And you must have mistaken my meaning. I don't think it's right wing to apply oneself diligently to anything.

I'm not suggesting that you did mean that.

It's quite possible to 'apply oneself diligently' - especially on something that one is highly interested in or even passionate about. This may not however translate into a decent work ethic or a sense of personal responsibility. Someone that has enough pride to be diligent in a boring often low paid job is the best definition in my book - especially when there's an easier option.

Red Eric May 12th 2017 12:29 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
From the occasional periods I spent out of gainful employment - which were mercifully brief, although they didn't seem so at the time - I would say it a great deal less of an easier option relying on welfare than being in the happy position of being supplied with a job and a salary.

And I'd say that governments have done a great deal since then to make it less likely that people are idling about and not trying to find work if they're able.

One has to take account of the fact that not everybody has an equal capacity to cope with their various misfortunes, though, as well as the fact that not all work is suitable for all the possible candidates or suitably within their reach.

lgm1963 May 12th 2017 12:34 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12251319)
From the occasional periods I spent out of gainful employment - which were mercifully brief, although they didn't seem so at the time - I would say it a great deal less of an easier option relying on welfare than being in the happy position of being supplied with a job and a salary.

And I'd say that governments have done a great deal since then to make it less likely that people are idling about and not trying to find work if they're able.

One has to take account of the fact that not everybody has an equal capacity to cope with their various misfortunes, though, as well as the fact that not all work is suitable for all the possible candidates or suitably within their reach.

All true but I would add the caveat that work not suitably within reach for a UK citizen is patently not suitably within reach of a Latvian. Or Hungarian. For example.

If the excuse for not working and staying on welfare is distance to work of course :)

Red Eric May 12th 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by lgm1963 (Post 12251323)
All true but I would add the caveat that work not suitably within reach for a UK citizen is patently not suitably within reach of a Latvian. Or Hungarian. For example.

If the excuse for not working and staying on welfare is distance to work of course :)

Which is where we differ, since work that is generally contracted to gangs, for example, is done so for various reasons, including that it is not permanent or reliable or well-paid and therefore not necessarily suitable for someone wishing to maintain a base or a stable home and a family life if they have to up sticks to go and work in 3 different counties in as many months.

lgm1963 May 12th 2017 12:42 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12251330)
Which is where we differ, since work that is generally contracted to gangs, for example, is done so for various reasons, including that it is not permanent or reliable or well-paid and therefore not necessarily suitable for someone wishing to maintain a base or a stable home and a family life if they have to up sticks to go and work in 3 different counties in as many months.

There's another place we differ.

My background is civil engineering, necessitating travel all over the uk to build bridges and roads, usually for set periods of 6 months to two years.

Should I have sat at home and waited for the government of the day to find me a job within a mile of my house and secure for life?

I think I might still be waiting for that.

morpeth May 12th 2017 12:53 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12250795)
We have hotels and restaurants crying out for locals to fill vacancies in the leisure industry.
The majority now employed are migrants from the EU.
Local kids do not like the work, hours too long and work too hard.
They do not want to start at the bottom., cleaning, washing up. bar work etc .
It's not just about the money.

I agree not just about the money, but at some point if wages high enough UK workers will be found- or if not, then perhaps better the economic is re-focused on higher growth productive sectors, and pay people to get trained.

I agree with you many don't want to start at the bottom.

Red Eric May 12th 2017 12:56 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by lgm1963 (Post 12251331)
There's another place we differ.

My background is civil engineering, necessitating travel all over the uk to build bridges and roads, usually for set periods of 6 months to two years.

Should I have sat at home and waited for the government of the day to find me a job within a mile of my house and secure for life?

I think I might still be waiting for that.

Clearly not, if the work you did was sufficiently well-paid to compensate, in your opinion, for the inconvenience of being away from your permanent home so much.

Not all work is, though and nor, in my opinion, should we expect everybody to accept a life permanently on the move.

lgm1963 May 12th 2017 1:04 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12251342)
Clearly not, if the work you did was sufficiently well-paid to compensate, in your opinion, for the inconvenience of being away from your permanent home so much.

Not all work is, though and nor, in my opinion, should we expect everybody to accept a life permanently on the move.

Well that's all fine and dandy.

But if someone chooses NOT to work I reserve the right to object to paying them to sit on their arse.

morpeth May 12th 2017 1:09 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12251139)
I prefer that version a great deal more.

This blaming of people not having a so-called "work ethic" is silly, in my opinion. It's used all the time - sometimes against entire nations. It's become ingrained, to the point where it's just grabbed as a phrase and tossed out and there's no thought of even questioning whether it could possibly be true.

And it's dangerous. You start generating a belief that people or countries are not thriving because they lack a work ethic and it dismisses the hosts of real reasons for things being the way they are. It's stereotyping of the worst sort, usually used to justify a callous indifference (or worse).

Plus, I can remember the self-same thing being said about youngsters when I was one. It was just as irritating then.

I do think any one who has employed people, in different countries and over sufficient length of time, will notice a difference in the work ethic-on average-, between and within countries, cultures and people, and age groups.

But I think you are spot on, using that to blame people doesn't serve any purpose and doesn't help solve the problem, and often used to "justify callous indifference" as you write. The idea of cutting benefits will make someone with a poor work ethic suddenly develop a new work ethic I am not sure can be substantiated for all or even most who suffer such benefit cuts.( perhaps some study shows it can be. In USA there were welfare cutbacks in the 1990's from Clinton and Gingrich working together- I don't see any evidence that addressed the "work ethic" issue. Just saved a few dollars).

Red Eric May 12th 2017 1:10 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by lgm1963 (Post 12251356)
Well that's all fine and dandy.

But if someone chooses NOT to work I reserve the right to object to paying them to sit on their arse.

One can't really tell, by looking at someone who's sitting on their arse, whether they're doing so through choice or for some other reason.

morpeth May 12th 2017 1:10 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by lgm1963 (Post 12251356)
Well that's all fine and dandy.

But if someone chooses NOT to work I reserve the right to object to paying them to sit on their arse.

I have the same emotional feeling, but what is alternative ?

lgm1963 May 12th 2017 1:14 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12251363)
One can't really tell, by looking at someone who's sitting on their arse, whether they're doing so through choice or for some other reason.

I was only going by your hypothetical scenario of there being people who are reluctant to actually travel away from home to work.

amideislas May 12th 2017 1:14 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Meanwhile...

Carney can't win - Bloomberg

Sterling then extended its losses as Carney said tighter monetary policy would depend on the “smooth” Brexit that his institution is predicting. That was a signal that investors don’t share his optimism for the U.K.’s withdrawal, and thus the path for rates.

“The BOE are basing their forecasts on a smooth Brexit process,” said John Wraith, head of U.K. macro rates and strategy at UBS. “If that happens, their optimistic view on growth might prove accurate and they will indeed need to tighten faster than the curve implies. The problem here is we don’t think at all that Brexit will be so smooth.”

Red Eric May 12th 2017 1:44 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by lgm1963 (Post 12251373)
I was only going by your hypothetical scenario of there being people who are reluctant to actually travel away from home to work.

That was your hypothetical scenario. Mine was a little more nuanced ;)

lutonlad May 12th 2017 2:54 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12251374)
Meanwhile...

Carney can't win - Bloomberg

Sterling then extended its losses as Carney said tighter monetary policy would depend on the “smooth” Brexit that his institution is predicting. That was a signal that investors don’t share his optimism for the U.K.’s withdrawal, and thus the path for rates.

“The BOE are basing their forecasts on a smooth Brexit process,” said John Wraith, head of U.K. macro rates and strategy at UBS. “If that happens, their optimistic view on growth might prove accurate and they will indeed need to tighten faster than the curve implies. The problem here is we don’t think at all that Brexit will be so smooth.”

Street party for you tonight then. Better still delay it 'til tomorrow when you celebrate the UK coming bottom in Eurovision.


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:58 pm.

Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.