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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Wol Aug 12th 2016 10:53 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12025010)
Well, again, despite the optimistic claims of "freedom and prosperity" for a post-brexit Britain, when you look at the details, there's only downside at every turn. A little lost here, a lot lost there, oh, and this other thing... Oh, and to make up for that, we'll have to do this, and that will mean lower tax revenues... And... And...

The fact is, a post-brexit Britain needs to reset its expectations. It's going to be very expensive, while the means to pay for it will be limited. The term that's been bandied about even by the new leadership is "new economic reality".

All just talk though, because as the new leadership digs down into this, they increasingly see how astronomically expensive it is. There's a point at which they have to ask "remind me again why we're doing this?". I have to suspect that question has already been brought up in cabinet meetings on multiple occasions.

Coincidentally, I have just started re-reading 1984. The similarities with the EU attitude are striking.

Apparently no country can stand on its own, the EU umbrella keeps everyone safe and happy.

Except of course the Club Med part. I've talked to several Greeks on the islands and they were absolutely despondent at the way their country has been destroyed by the Troika. It's a travesty of "community".

DaveLovesDee Aug 12th 2016 11:08 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Wol (Post 12025106)
Coincidentally, I have just started re-reading 1984. The similarities with the EU attitude are striking.

Apparently no country can stand on its own, the EU umbrella keeps everyone safe and happy.

Except of course the Club Med part. I've talked to several Greeks on the islands and they were absolutely despondent at the way their country has been destroyed by the Troika. It's a travesty of "community".

It wasn't only the EU's fault. There were many to blame, including the Greek government.

paulry Aug 12th 2016 11:35 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Wol (Post 12025106)
Coincidentally, I have just started re-reading 1984. The similarities with the EU attitude are striking.

Apparently no country can stand on its own, the EU umbrella keeps everyone safe and happy.

Except of course the Club Med part. I've talked to several Greeks on the islands and they were absolutely despondent at the way their country has been destroyed by the Troika. It's a travesty of "community".

And the talk by the remainiacs on this thread has a distinctly Animal Farm flavour to it.

amideislas Aug 12th 2016 11:40 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Wol (Post 12025106)
Coincidentally, I have just started re-reading 1984. The similarities with the EU attitude are striking.

Apparently no country can stand on its own, the EU umbrella keeps everyone safe and happy.

Except of course the Club Med part. I've talked to several Greeks on the islands and they were absolutely despondent at the way their country has been destroyed by the Troika. It's a travesty of "community".

Although your narrative sounds suspiciously like an express opinion piece, if that's what you believe, then perhaps you should write to Ms. May and say "I don't care what happens, just do this, and do it now, because that's what I want and I'm entitled".

Oh, by the way, Britain far more resembles "1984" in many more ways than anywhere in the EU. Although neither come all that close.

amideislas Aug 12th 2016 11:50 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by paulry (Post 12025123)
And the talk by the remainiacs on this thread has a distinctly Animal Farm flavour to it.

Personally, I think Britain MUST go now. And Europe should be demanding that Britain to move ahead with invoking article 50 immediately, and then simply play Britain's game under British rules, and demand that EU members have full unfettered access to the British market, but Britain loses free access to the European market. That would solve any of Europe's drawbacks, and Britain can be "free". Everybody gets what they want.

Even your favourite Orwellian tabloid seems to agree:

Brexit - Theresa May urged to trigger Article 50 ASAP amid fears it can be REVERSED | Politics | News | Daily Express


But tabloid sensationalism aside, here's a bit more grounded view

Brexit means Brexit, but the Norway model is clearly the least worst option



Theresa May’s most telling statement, however, has been that “Brexit means Brexit”. She has followed this up by asserting “there will be no attempts to remain inside the EU, there will be no attempts to rejoin it by the back door… As prime minister, I will make sure we leave the European Union.”


These are fateful words. The reality of the matter is that Britain’s political needs and economic prosperity would be best served by the UK doing exactly what Denmark, Ireland (twice), France and Holland have all done in their turn: perform a U-turn, somehow finding an adequately democratically respectable way to reverse a decision taken by referendum which is deeply damaging to the national interest.

...

A second referendum – for example, on the outcome of Brexit negotiations might have been possible – but this now too seems to be ruled out by the May dictum that “Brexit means Brexit”. If she holds fast to these words, Britain is doomed to leave the EU – with Bremain and Brexit Conservative MPs alike combining Thelma-and-Louise-like to drive the UK off the Brexit cliff after a possible two-year negotiation phase. Thereafter Britain will take up a splendidly isolated if diplomatically emasculated and economically weaker position as Europe’s latest Norway – and that is a best-case scenario.

jimenato Aug 12th 2016 1:49 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12025133)

This is the bit which I don't understand...


May’s promise to make a “success” of Brexit, in contrast, is unfulfillable, something she must know. One might as well promise to make a success of a train crash. Brexit cannot possibly work as well as membership of the EU. Locked outside of the corridors of power, Britain will inevitably lose influence, power, market access on optimal conditions and, ultimately, money. Knowledge that this would be so is presumably why May herself opposed Brexit in the referendum campaign.
Yes - she must know that - it's obvious. And yet she is saying ...


“there will be no attempts to remain inside the EU, there will be no attempts to rejoin it by the back door… As prime minister, I will make sure we leave the European Union.”
So she is seemingly irrevocable committed to something she knows is very damaging for the country. I don't know how a responsible and prudent politician (and she seems to be one) could do that.

The only thing I can think of is that she is waiting for or expecting something else to happen, something that means she doesn't have to do it but it won't be her fault that she doesn't have to.

amideislas Aug 12th 2016 2:13 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
I know, I know... Paradoxical. The whole damn thing is. :confused:

Dick Dasterdly Aug 12th 2016 8:51 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12025211)
This is the bit which I don't understand...



Yes - she must know that - it's obvious. And yet she is saying ...

So she is seemingly irrevocable committed to something she knows is very damaging for the country. I don't know how a responsible and prudent politician (and she seems to be one) could do that.

The only thing I can think of is that she is waiting for or expecting something else to happen, something that means she doesn't have to do it but it won't be her fault that she doesn't have to.


I guess she is waiting and expecting for the disastrous EU project/con trick to sink silently beneath the waves as ever more EU citizens come to recognise it for precisely what it is. :cool:


"Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation."
Jean Monnet

amideislas Aug 12th 2016 9:23 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12025478)
I guess she is waiting and expecting for the disastrous EU project/con trick to sink silently beneath the waves as ever more EU citizens come to recognise it for precisely what it is. :cool:


"Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation."
Jean Monnet

Oh dick. You keep saying that, but it's well known that Jean Monnet never said any such thing.

In fact, these weren’t Monnet’s words at all – but those of the (far right) Conservative politician and author, Adrian Hilton, in The Principality and Power of Europe, published in 1997.

And you really should give up the whole "disastrous EU dictatorship" rhetoric. Seriously, it reflects more on your own character than the EU. It really doesn't help you at all. It just makes you look silly.

paulry Aug 12th 2016 10:14 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12025502)
Oh dick. You keep saying that, but it's well known that Jean Monnet never said any such thing.

In fact, these weren’t Monnet’s words at all – but those of the (far right) Conservative politician and author, Adrian Hilton, in The Principality and Power of Europe, published in 1997.

And you really should give up the whole "disastrous EU dictatorship" rhetoric. Seriously, it reflects more on your own character than the EU. It really doesn't help you at all. It just makes you look silly.

You know what looks silly is someone who claims they voted to leave but who behaves like a remainiac. :nod:

amideislas Aug 12th 2016 10:33 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12025065)
Keeping London as a financial center will cost you. You pay and you can stay the financial center. Very simple.

People like nice clean "brands" that represent one thing or another, that's for sure. So I can understand your confusion.

But Britain just doesn't belong in Europe. It's much too fearful and dissenting of it. Just look at your own sensationalist rhetoric for a testament to that. Europe has enough problems, doesn't need that on top.

Britain chose to leave. Foolishly and much to hastily, IMO, but things being what they are, then Britain should go, and it should do it now rather than create long-term uncertainty in Europe. Europe didn't make that choice, Britain did. And although it's a shame that decision will have nasty consequences for Britain, it shouldn't expect Europe to suffer too. It's Britain's choice, and Britain's problem.

amideislas Aug 12th 2016 11:12 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Brexit fallout is coming, but it could be good news

It’s a matter of when, not if, the U.K. leaves the EU. But it may not go the way the pundits have predicted.


Another unanticipated ripple effect from Brexit is that U.S. banks could grow bigger, not smaller. They will need to expand their presence in the EU, and that could be done by buying a bank with all the necessary regulatory approvals in place. American firms have for years had their key European operations centered in London, but when the Brexit is complete, U.S. banks and insurers will have to head somewhere else. For some, that may mean acquisitions.
...
At a time when most large U.S. financial institutions are effectively restricted from growing much larger at home, thanks to post-crisis regulation, a July PwC report titled "Not just across the pond: How U.S. financial institutions prepare for Brexit," suggests that they may have to engage in M&A in order to meet their new requirements. Maintaining European Economic Area (EEA) passporting rights, or being allowed to continue EU operations, could require making a deal, the report said.

Wol Aug 12th 2016 11:54 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
It makes me die how Bremainers can bring up all sorts of faux problems. There are many, many countries to which you can travel without visas, just with a passport.

It's not beyond the wit of man to arrange for work permits backed with a valid passport.

The biggest problem is that for nigh on half a century the UK has abrogated so many international negotiations to the EU bureaucracy that the civil service no longer has the expertise. (That say quite a lot about giving away accountability, actually). But there are many competent people in other "Western" democracies that are able to put the structures in place.

Why is it that so many people have such a low regard for Britain that they feel unable to cope without the comfort blanket in Brussels?

amideislas Aug 13th 2016 5:52 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Wol (Post 12025577)
It makes me die how Bremainers can bring up all sorts of faux problems. There are many, many countries to which you can travel without visas, just with a passport.

It's not beyond the wit of man to arrange for work permits backed with a valid passport.

:confused: A bit out of the blue, but some of your brexiter friends have suggested that visa-free travel should be abolished in post-brexit Britain to reduce immigration.

Or are you simply confused about the term "passporting rights", which has nothing to do with travel or immigration?


Originally Posted by Wol (Post 12025577)
The biggest problem is that for nigh on half a century the UK has abrogated so many international negotiations to the EU bureaucracy that the civil service no longer has the expertise. (That say quite a lot about giving away accountability, actually). But there are many competent people in other "Western" democracies that are able to put the structures in place.

Why is it that so many people have such a low regard for Britain that they feel unable to cope without the comfort blanket in Brussels?

:confused: I presume you are offering the "problem" above as an example of a "faux problem"? It certainly does qualify as such. But then, you seem to be the first to mention it, and I don't believe you qualify as a "bremainer", so that's a bit ironic.

The utter lack of understanding of brexit by those who voted for it (and the subsequent government who must now manage it) is absolutely breathtaking.

mfesharne Aug 13th 2016 6:32 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12025678)
:confused: A bit out of the blue, but some of your brexiter friends have suggested that visa-free travel should be abolished in post-brexit Britain to reduce immigration.

Or are you simply confused about the term "passporting rights", which has nothing to do with travel or immigration?

That comment is probably aimed at me...... in which case, there's nothing to say that all Brexiteers should agree on everything any more than all Remainiacs must agree on everything.

However, the comment (if aimed at me) is untrue.

The reason I believe a visa & security checks are essential is to prevent entry to those wishing to do harm to the UK.

As I see it, 9/11 changed the world & other events mostly inspired by fidiots such as Bliar & Bush (amongst others) have changed it further & forever & because of this, the world is waaay past the times of visa free travel.

However those that can meet the visa, security (& immigration) criteria of the day are very welcome.

I'm not suggesting the UK keeps everyone out...... just the wrong 'uns.


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