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Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Old Sep 20th 2018, 4:49 pm
  #76  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Easy to extend A50 to fit in a second referendum, if the will of the people demands one. Main problem (besides an incompetent PM backstopped by a hard Brexit replacement) is that JC is hopeless on this issue. If somehow Kier Starmer could gain control of Labour (unlikely) rationality would return.
So basically, like many in the EU, you still want to see the decision reversed by any and all means necessary.

If the UK's social situation looks bad at the moment, a second referendum would look 1000x worse, especially if Remain won it.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 4:49 pm
  #77  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I'd like her out and a second referendum.
So my assumption was absolutely spot on then. I thought it might be.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 4:56 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
True, but it shouldn't really be an English PM's perogative. If the Irish on both sides of the border determined they would prefer unity, I don't see any tanks rolling in this time. I think in about ten years the Catholics in NI will outnumber the Protestants, and so the situation may evolve.
Whilst NI remains part of the UK then it certainly is her prerogative. Only a border poll would change that situation and even with Brexit there’s no appetite for Irish reunification, either from the NI electorate, London or Dublin. The cost alone would bankrupt the Republic.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 4:57 pm
  #79  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
How about if their number are in the hundreds? Same policy?
It is impossible to know what would happen.
There would have to be a 'referendum' on both sides of the border----what if different results?
What if both voted for reunification but the Republic of Ireland wanted reunification without those from NI who had voted against? Or without those such as Ulster Loyalists or those previously involved in violence----
What if the reunified Ireland deported the latter to the UK??
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 5:00 pm
  #80  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
So basically, like many in the EU, you still want to see the decision reversed by any and all means necessary.

If the UK's social situation looks bad at the moment, a second referendum would look 1000x worse, especially if Remain won it.
I do think the decision should be reversed, and that democracy is over-rated in this instance.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 5:03 pm
  #81  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I do think the decision should be reversed, and that democracy is over-rated in this instance.
Well I respectfully disagree. I couldn't disagree more actually. I'd go so far as to say that this was the only vote I have ever cast that I felt actually mattered.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 5:04 pm
  #82  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
It is impossible to know what would happen.
There would have to be a 'referendum' on both sides of the border----what if different results?
What if both voted for reunification but the Republic of Ireland wanted reunification without those from NI who had voted against? Or without those such as Ulster Loyalists or those previously involved in violence----
What if the reunified Ireland deported the latter to the UK??
Such a referendum would be a joint decision. Not a simple majority like the moron Cameron breezily proposed, perhaps a qualified majority. If re-unifcation won, NI Brits could be awarded dual nationality and get on with life.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 5:16 pm
  #83  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Well I respectfully disagree. I couldn't disagree more actually. I'd go so far as to say that this was the only vote I have ever cast that I felt actually mattered.
It certainly mattered, and votes from informed individuals such as yourself are not the issue. It's the many many uninformed citizens that have no sense of the complexity or ramifications on what they are voting for which makes me question the democratic process. People who are fuming why haven't we left already and harking back to Britain's capabilities a century ago. Ironically, this was an advisory referendum, so a competent set of politicians could have taken the mood, and then used their superior capability to steer the best course for the country. Instead, we have the clueless Maybot spouting "Brexit means Brexit" and "Will of the People" instead of leading with conviction. It's funny how Brexiters dismiss the hollow Leave promises, as "heat of the campaign remarks" but when the official ADVISORY status is pitched by Cameron as "a binding decision" (in the heat of the campaign) this off the cuff remark is held on to as tightly as ever.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 5:32 pm
  #84  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Such a referendum would be a joint decision. Not a simple majority like the moron Cameron breezily proposed, perhaps a qualified majority. If re-unifcation won, NI Brits could be awarded dual nationality and get on with life.
It is rather naive to expect that they would just 'get on with life', violence exists as it is now!
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 5:36 pm
  #85  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
It certainly mattered, and votes from informed individuals such as yourself are not the issue. It's the many many uninformed citizens that have no sense of the complexity or ramifications on what they are voting for which makes me question the democratic process. People who are fuming why haven't we left already and harking back to Britain's capabilities a century ago. Ironically, this was an advisory referendum, so a competent set of politicians could have taken the mood, and then used their superior capability to steer the best course for the country. Instead, we have the clueless Maybot spouting "Brexit means Brexit" and "Will of the People" instead of leading with conviction. It's funny how Brexiters dismiss the hollow Leave promises, as "heat of the campaign remarks" but when the official ADVISORY status is pitched by Cameron as "a binding decision" (in the heat of the campaign) this off the cuff remark is held on to as tightly as ever.
So you are saying all those people who voted Remain', or didn't vote were "informed"?
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 5:47 pm
  #86  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
So you are saying all those people who voted Remain', or didn't vote were "informed"?
​​​​​​I don't think he's saying that and I can actually see his point. I do personally feel sorry for anyone who voted Leave purely because of a promise of extra funding for the NHS, a promise which incidentally nobody at the forefront of the Leave campaign was in a position to make.

There also would have been a small minority who probably voted Leave based on nothing short of racism but undeniably there has been ignorance and prejudice on both sides of this thing.

Regardless, it is happening now though and I really don't think the A50 decision is going to be reversed. Even if you saw May's plan fall flat causing a vote of no confidence and a snap election shortly before or after Christmas followed by a Labour victory, Labour wouldn't dare back out of this thing entirely. At most they would probably request an emergency break from the EU so the new government could form a strategy of their own to negotiate. That's just my assumption though.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 6:15 pm
  #87  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
So you are saying all those people who voted Remain', or didn't vote were "informed"?
I voted Remain, which I knew what it entailed.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 6:42 pm
  #88  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
I voted Remain, which I knew what it entailed.
Yes, that entailed retaining a status quo which significant numbers of the population weren't happy with.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 6:58 pm
  #89  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
It is rather naive to expect that they would just 'get on with life', violence exists as it is now!
There would be no difference then. You're imaging a much more difficult situation than would actually exist. If both sides if Ireland voted say 70% in favour of reunification, why should they be stopped? Especially, if the NI people affected were given the right to dual nationality. Countries change. Look at Germany and Czechoslovakia.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 6:59 pm
  #90  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Yes, that entailed retaining a status quo which significant numbers of the population weren't happy with.
As opposed to making a choice which significant numbers of the population aren't happy with. You'll never make 100% of the population happy at the same time, though you can make them all miserable for many different reasons......
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