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Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Old Sep 20th 2018, 1:07 am
  #31  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Wasn't the US-Canada border like that pre-9/11 though? People used to just walk across any part of it to go grocery shopping, see their mates or have breakfast in a nearby diner. It was only after 2001 that things were tightened up but even now there's no wall to speak of along most of it. As we all know, there isn't even a wall separating the US entirely from Mexico.
No, but you didn't need a passport to cross, just a driver's licence. There were a few small towns where you could walk along a road across the border without checks, but they are now closed and monitored by sensors, UAVs and patrols. And you will get arrested for illegal entry.

Much of the US-Mexico border is fenced, or bordered by the Rio Grande.

The current land border situation over there is based on patrols and a reliance on people obeying the rules and using official checkpoints, with punishments for those who don't. IMHO there's no reason why the UK and Ireland couldn't adapt and replicate that scenario.
The time and expense of a fence and checkpoint facilities, including appropriating land. And the ongoing costs of recruiting, training and equipping the employees.

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Old Sep 20th 2018, 1:16 am
  #32  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
No, but you didn't need a passport to cross, just a driver's licence. There were a few small towns where you could walk along a road across the border without checks, but they are now closed and monitored by sensors, UAVs and patrols. And you will get arrested for illegal entry.
By sheer coincidence I was mucking about on google maps a couple of weeks ago, zooming in on parts of the border where there were small roads that seemed to stop short of the border. I switched to the satellite view and it was rather fun following the border and the various small roads. They might stop at a solitary house or just in the middle of nowhere and there'd be a bit of grass then a fence - like that around a small garden - a "no entry" sign or whatever and then almost a mirror image on the other side. No idea how long ago the pics were. More difficult apple scrumping when I was a boy
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 5:22 am
  #33  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
I've personally never understood why we can't have a hard border with the Republic of Ireland. As long as it's policed and controlled properly and inconvenience is kept to a bare minimum then I'm quite sure that people and businesses would adapt.

It shouldn't be that hard either. You just have a NEXUS type system for UK and Irish citizens and a few vetted and pre-cleared foreigners/residents another line and processing mechanism for everyone else.

Aside from the technical difficulties, the people who live there simply don't want that. That would be the same as re-erecting the Berlin wall. And for what?
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 6:38 am
  #34  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
Aside from the technical difficulties, the people who live there simply don't want that. That would be the same as re-erecting the Berlin wall. And for what?
It would be nothing like the Berlin wall. That was designed to contain East Germans and prevent defection or Western interference beyond the iron curtain. This would just be a normal land border like countries have all over the world, including in other parts of Europe.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 6:59 am
  #35  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
It would be nothing like the Berlin wall. That was designed to contain East Germans and prevent defection or Western interference beyond the iron curtain. This would just be a normal land border like countries have all over the world, including in other parts of Europe.
Like the one between Bulgaria and Turkey, for example? (and both of those are in the Customs Union )
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 8:03 am
  #36  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Like the one between Bulgaria and Turkey, for example? (and both of those are in the Customs Union )
Are you honestly suggesting that there couldn't be sensible border controls between NI and the Republic?
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 8:11 am
  #37  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Are you honestly suggesting that there couldn't be sensible border controls between NI and the Republic?
No - I'm honestly suggesting that a "normal" land border between an EU member state and a non EU member state might be like the one between Bulgaria and Turkey.

Are you honestly suggesting that isn't a "sensible" border? I thought you liked border controls.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 8:14 am
  #38  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
No - I'm honestly suggesting that a "normal" land border between an EU member state and a non EU member state might be like the one between Bulgaria and Turkey.

Are you honestly suggesting that isn't a "sensible" border? I thought you liked border controls.
There's a big difference there. The land border between the UK and the ROI could be based on the US/Canadian Nexus model. It doesn't need to be extreme because it's unlikely to be a hot spot for refugees and illegal trafficking.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 8:19 am
  #39  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Why couldn't it become a hotspot for illegal trafficking of goods?
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 8:26 am
  #40  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Why couldn't it become a hotspot for illegal trafficking of goods?
It could do I suppose but it isn't one right now so far as I am aware. If it ever became a hotbed of Crystal Meth labs or Cocaine dens then the whole border situation would need to be revised anyway.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 8:57 am
  #41  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
There's a big difference there. The land border between the UK and the ROI could be based on the US/Canadian Nexus model. It doesn't need to be extreme because it's unlikely to be a hot spot for refugees and illegal trafficking.
The kind of border you are suggesting was proposed as the "MaxFac" option several months ago. It didn't get much traction as it contravenes the Good Friday Agreement, and there are plenty of Republican interests in both NI/ROI that see it as a step backwards. Not that I have a dog in the fight, but I do too. And if the UK exits the EU, it seems a good time and expedient solution to permit Irish unification in due course.

On the 2 years delay, nothing to do with the EU. Britain hasn't been able to devise a coherent Brexit proposal (well, other than "Brexit means Brexit" that one was top notch). Not so much Britain, actually, but the Tory party who even now, at this 11th hour, do not agree a proposal. The Brexit press spin it as Brussels being unreasonable or crafty in not bending to British demands to have cake and eat it too, but the real fault lies with the Tories. With Theresa May in fact. She hasn't been strong enough to face down the hard Brexiters, so squandered the A50 negotiation period in the hopes that hard Brexiters would just fall into line.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 9:13 am
  #42  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
The kind of border you are suggesting was proposed as the "MaxFac" option several months ago. It didn't get much traction as it contravenes the Good Friday Agreement, and there are plenty of Republican interests in both NI/ROI that see it as a step backwards. Not that I have a dog in the fight, but I do too. And if the UK exits the EU, it seems a good time and expedient solution to permit Irish unification in due course.
Why would it be a step backwards? Until Ireland is unified, the current system basically ties the Republic to the UK's hip, like some slightly odd fiddle playing conjoined twin.

It's clear at this point that Ireland feels more European than Britain and that's their call to make however that also means that the current border situation holds them back. They can't join Schengen because that would mean an end to the CTA and every decision they make has to factor in a potential risk of damaging their relationship with the UK.

A normal border would mean they can finally detatch themselves and do things in exactly the way they want to do them. It would probably work out better for everyone in the long run.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 9:26 am
  #43  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Why would it be a step backwards? Until Ireland is unified, the current system basically ties the Republic to the UK's hip, like some slightly odd fiddle playing conjoined twin.

It's clear at this point that Ireland feels more European than Britain and that's their call to make however that also means that the current border situation holds them back. They can't join Schengen because that would mean an end to the CTA and every decision they make has to factor in a potential risk of damaging their relationship with the UK.

A normal border would mean they can finally detatch themselves and do things in exactly the way they want to do them. It would probably work out better for everyone in the long run.
Republicans don't want to detach NI from ROI they want it to be joined ??? There are Republicans on both sides of the border.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 9:36 am
  #44  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Republicans don't want to detach NI from ROI they want it to be joined ??? There are Republicans on both sides of the border.
I have no problem with the idea of Irish reunification but if and when that happens, it's going to be a long way off. For now, a hard border seems like the best solution IMHO.
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Old Sep 20th 2018, 9:44 am
  #45  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Why would it be a step backwards? Until Ireland is unified, the current system basically ties the Republic to the UK's hip, like some slightly odd fiddle playing conjoined twin.

It's clear at this point that Ireland feels more European than Britain and that's their call to make however that also means that the current border situation holds them back. They can't join Schengen because that would mean an end to the CTA and every decision they make has to factor in a potential risk of damaging their relationship with the UK.

A normal border would mean they can finally detatch themselves and do things in exactly the way they want to do them. It would probably work out better for everyone in the long run.
You say 'at this point' ---"Ireland feels more European than Britain"---remember Ireland voted against the Lisbon Treaty and were bribed by the EU to hold a second referendum! The people may possibly feel differently from the present Government.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-unlawful.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...on-Treaty.html
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