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Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Old Oct 21st 2018, 10:45 pm
  #1666  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
The UK media has tended to be Eurosceptic, or Euro-ambivalent at the least. There's never been a serious attempt over the last 25+ years to encourage Brits to understand what we went into when we joined the EU. Instead, all we've had are the negatives (many perceived) from media and politicians.
I have taken part in every local, national and European election since I've been eligible to vote. Turnout at Euro elections has always been ridiculously low - somewhere between 30 and 40 percent usually. I've also encountered a huge amount of opposition to the EU over the years. I'm not sure it's all the fault of politicians and the media either. The UK sees itself differently to anywhere else and that view has been around a lot longer than the EU has. It's part of who we are.
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Old Oct 21st 2018, 10:49 pm
  #1667  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Certain populist newspapers and loud people, yes. If it were true of the people, surely it should have been a resounding vote to leave, if not a majority of the electorate, at least of those who voted, rather than the close vote it was.
I can only offer my own personal anecdotal evidence, but among the people that I've spoken to over the years, bearing in mind that I voted remain and have been a sometime (lukewarm) advocate of the EU, the opposition and hostility is a lot more prevalent than you think.
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Old Oct 21st 2018, 10:54 pm
  #1668  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
I have taken part in every local, national and European election since I've been eligible to vote. Turnout at Euro elections has always been ridiculously low - somewhere between 30 and 40 percent usually. I've also encountered a huge amount of opposition to the EU over the years. I'm not sure it's all the fault of politicians and the media either. The UK sees itself differently to anywhere else and that view has been around a lot longer than the EU has. It's part of who we are.
This

Must have something to do with being an island. I don't mean this nasty.
It's just that, on mainland Europe we feel much closer to each other despite making jokes about each other. A bit like between Scots and Englishman.

I also believe the average Brit didn't know much about the EU and was very misinformed by biased media. The terms CU and SM were not really a part of the general English knowledge.
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Old Oct 21st 2018, 11:00 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
This

Must have something to do with being an island. I don't mean this nasty.
It's just that, on mainland Europe we feel much closer to each other despite making jokes about each other. A bit like between Scots and Englishman.

I also believe the average Brit didn't know much about the EU and was very misinformed by biased media. The terms CU and SM were not really a part of the general English knowledge.
It's not just about being an island, because you don't encounter the same attitude in Ireland for example (or modern day Scotland it would seem).

The island mentality is part of It, but so are history and culture and all kinds of other things too.
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Old Oct 21st 2018, 11:11 pm
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
I can only offer my own personal anecdotal evidence, but among the people that I've spoken to over the years, bearing in mind that I voted remain and have been a sometime (lukewarm) advocate of the EU, the opposition and hostility is a lot more prevalent than you think.
In my time in the UK, my only anecdotal evidence of opposition to the EU (and this mostly in the civil service in offices dominated by middle classes) has involved died in the wool Mail/Express/Sun readers. I'm exempting readers of the Times and Telegraph who at least appear able to form and explain their own opinions).

But as I said, if this hostility is so great, then when they finally got the opportunity to register that hostility, why have they not done so in the numbers suggested by all that supposed opposition, especially with that enormous advantage (the big lie) touted for the NHS?
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Old Oct 22nd 2018, 5:49 am
  #1671  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
What about the 16,141,241, do they have right to say something?
They did. In the referendum. Which they got 48% of the votes in.
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Old Oct 22nd 2018, 8:19 am
  #1672  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
I'm not sure the result was a fluke. The UK has always seemed very Eurosceptic to me. As a presumably committed Remain voter, what has been your experience of talking to other people in Britain about the EU?
There's obviously a large tract of Britain that is Eurosceptic, and of course many that are Europium. Almost everyone I know was Remain and was appalled at the result. Attitudes to the EU amongst were that it was an imperfect beast, but so are many political structures and what was on offer under Brexit was pure fantasy. I do have one friend who is ardent Brexit/Eurosceptic and we have had some heavy debates. Unfortunately he has a tendency to read the DM and I can see how that rag re-inerprets issues and fuels ill will.

The reason I say it was a fluke is that 2016 was near the peak of migration crisis, and the Remain campaign was fairly lazy and poorly run. The fact that Leavers are adamant that no-rerun of the vote occurs only serves to confirm that.
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Old Oct 22nd 2018, 8:23 am
  #1673  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by orly View Post
They did. In the referendum. Which they got 48% of the votes in.
​​​​​​Correct. I just find it lame when Leavers emphasise 17 million votes for Leave and disregard 16 million for Remain.
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Old Oct 22nd 2018, 8:25 am
  #1674  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
I'm not sure the result was a fluke. The UK has always seemed very Eurosceptic to me. As a presumably committed Remain voter, what has been your experience of talking to other people in Britain about the EU?

Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
I have taken part in every local, national and European election since I've been eligible to vote. Turnout at Euro elections has always been ridiculously low - somewhere between 30 and 40 percent usually. I've also encountered a huge amount of opposition to the EU over the years. I'm not sure it's all the fault of politicians and the media either. The UK sees itself differently to anywhere else and that view has been around a lot longer than the EU has. It's part of who we are.
I don't remember there having been particularly vigorous campaigning for the EU elections, which might explain the ridiculously low turnout.

I'd say the dominant attitude was more tacit approval and apathy than anything else, except for the diehard Eurosceptic politicians and the EU pantomime villain stuff in the tabloids. I reckon that if there had been no campaigning at all the result would have been remain. I think events conspired to play right into the hands of the Eurosceptics in the lead up to the referendum and I think the extent to which they would be prepared to lie and to cheat in order to have their way was seriously overlooked.
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Old Oct 22nd 2018, 8:46 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post

I don't remember there having been particularly vigorous campaigning for the EU elections, which might explain the ridiculously low turnout.

I'd say the dominant attitude was more tacit approval and apathy than anything else, except for the diehard Eurosceptic politicians and the EU pantomime villain stuff in the tabloids. I reckon that if there had been no campaigning at all the result would have been remain. I think events conspired to play right into the hands of the Eurosceptics in the lead up to the referendum and I think the extent to which they would be prepared to lie and to cheat in order to have their way was seriously overlooked.
Indeed. It's less exciting and fantasist to make a case for the status quo, especially when that status quo is not without its problems. For example, far more emotional to focus on the handful of fishing families that have lost their livelihood under EU fishing quotas than the tens of thousands of office and factory workers which will see their jobs be relocated to the Continent. Cameron and his cronies were not seen as men of the people, and Corbyn decided to sit the referendum out.
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Old Oct 22nd 2018, 9:18 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

JRM on "shambles"...


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Old Oct 22nd 2018, 9:58 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
​​​​​​Correct. I just find it lame when Leavers emphasise 17 million votes for Leave and disregard 16 million for Remain.
17 Mn > 16 Mn.
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Old Oct 22nd 2018, 9:59 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by orly View Post
They did. In the referendum. Which they got 48% of the votes in.
Exactly. It's done and the larger side won. That's just simple maths, nevermind democracy.
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Old Oct 22nd 2018, 10:04 am
  #1679  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
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Old Oct 22nd 2018, 10:06 am
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
The UK sees itself differently to anywhere else and that view has been around a lot longer than the EU has. It's part of who we are.
I'm not so sure that it's that although it's fair to say that as an island nation with a long history, Britain is somewhat unique and you see a lot of parallels with somewhere like Japan which sits similarly uncomfortably in East Asia.

I think it's more that the UK, or at least much of the population, sees itself as being culturally closer to our allies in North America or Australasia than we are to the Europeans. Whether or not that's the right or wrong stance would depend on your views on the EU I suppose however I think it's fair to say that we certainly can't depend upon the Europeans for anything during a time of need.
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