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Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Old Sep 21st 2018, 11:03 am
  #136  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Deciding to come out of the EU is no NO WAY equivalent to a general election decision.
It is still a decision that was ultimately up to the British electorate to make and the referendum was the right thing to do. It was actually long over due IMHO.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 11:21 am
  #137  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

DG - you are admirably reinforcing your point that young people don't have the knowledge and experience to vote.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 11:27 am
  #138  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
DG - you are admirably reinforcing your point that young people don't have the knowledge and experience to vote.
And you are reinforcing your point that entitled pro-Remain supporters couldn't give a toss about anyone else or democracy so long as they get what they want.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 11:32 am
  #139  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
And you are reinforcing your point that entitled pro-Remain supporters couldn't give a toss about anyone else or democracy so long as they get what they want.
Nope - I've already said that this is barely democracy - bad democracy at best. The difference between you and me is that I know what democracy is - and I care about it and I care about the future of the country.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 11:42 am
  #140  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
And you are reinforcing your point that entitled pro-Remain supporters couldn't give a toss about anyone else or democracy so long as they get what they want.
Most Remain supporters are concerned that the likely economic contraction/crash following a Brexit will lead to job losses and welfare reductions for fellow citizens. We're reluctant to gamble other people's futures for the pie in the sky. So again, what you say is wrong.

As for 'what they want', that applies to both sides. Leavers are hanging on to the slimmest of margins and refusing point blank to confirm public opinion, now that the details have been exposed.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 11:48 am
  #141  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
The difference between you and me is that I know what democracy is - and I care about it and I care about the future of the country.
Are you insinuating that I don't? It's quite arrogant to assume that I want to see the country crash and burn because I don't agree with your belief system.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 11:50 am
  #142  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Most Remain supporters are concerned that the likely economic contraction/crash following a Brexit will lead to job losses and welfare reductions for fellow citizens. We're reluctant to gamble other people's futures for the pie in the sky. So again, what you say is wrong.

As for 'what they want', that applies to both sides. Leavers are hanging on to the slimmest of margins and refusing point blank to confirm public opinion, now that the details have been exposed.
The alternative is that we just continue to drink from the EU poisoned chalice forever until Europe inevitably fails and likely takes us down with it.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 11:56 am
  #143  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
The alternative is that we just continue to drink from the EU poisoned chalice forever until Europe inevitably fails and likely takes us down with it.
Why so fatalistic? Remember we, the UK, designed half the EU and as senior member could use our influence to improve it. There are plenty of flaws in the EU, and there are plenty of bad polices in Britain in relation to EU immigration, all that can be worked on. If there was a huge gain available by leaving, I might be tempted to consider leaving, but there really isn't. We have world's richest, fairest, most compatible economic bloc on our doorstep, and we can be a positive force within it rather than an insular country outside it.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 12:09 pm
  #144  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Why so fatalistic? Remember we, the UK, designed half the EU and as senior member could use our influence to improve it. There are plenty of flaws in the EU, and there are plenty of bad polices in Britain in relation to EU immigration, all that can be worked on. If there was a huge gain available by leaving, I might be tempted to consider leaving, but there really isn't. We have world's richest, fairest, most compatible economic bloc on our doorstep, and we can be a positive force within it rather than an insular country outside it.
​​​​​​It isn't the world's richest bloc. That's NAFTA. It certainly isn't the fairest or most compatible IMHO either.

I'll be honest, I truly hate it and how they've behaved regarding Brexit and the likes of Hungary etc has only made me dislike it even more.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 12:24 pm
  #145  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
Nope - I've already said that this is barely democracy - bad democracy at best. The difference between you and me is that I know what democracy is - and I care about it and I care about the future of the country.
Apart from it's obvious smugness - sounds like a throwback to Animal Farm. All democracies are equal but some are more equal than others.

No doubt some think that brainwashing on social media is modern democracy in action.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 12:38 pm
  #146  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Of course it is. Both have the ability to impact and redirect the country in a way that can take many years to reverse.

If anything, this whole exercise has opened the eyes of Joe Public to just how much we have surrendered to Europe over the last 4 decades. It has all been slowly and quietly chipped away while Brussels have chased their ridiculous federalist agenda. It's a good thing that the UK is making this break now while it still can.
We haven't surrendered anything. We've been an active participant in shaping the direction of the EU, including being a leading supporter of the introduction of free movement. We've negotiated more opt-outs than any other member (Denmark has the same total number), and a rebate (which we then traded part of away to get something else we wanted from the EU).

Then when the EU finally said no, Cameron had to call the referendum he'd promised in his election manifesto
to appease the Tory hardliners, the same ones now pushing for a hard Brexit. Do you see the agenda now?

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
We've tried to negotiate with them in the past. It can't be done and it's pointless to even try anymore.
So all the opt-outs the UK got, and it's rebate, weren't successful negotiations on the UK's part? If it's pointless to try anymore, why didn't the government say so publicly and tell the EU that we're leaving next year with no deal, instead of wasting nearly 18 months asking for things anyone who understands EU regulations knows aren't going to be given to the UK.

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
​​​​​​I don't think they actually promised anything. They sold an idea for a brighter future and that was it. At no point did they ever say what would categorically happen and as I've stated before, nobody fronting the Leave campaign was in a position to make fully fledged campaign promises anyway.
There's the problem, it was never made crystal clear what Leave actually meant, nor who had the authority to make sure that what was promised would be delivered. It should have been explicitly stated whether Leave would mean leaving the EU completely, or staying in areas such as aviation, medicines, single market or a customs union. And where the EU/non-EU border was going to be. This could/should have been done after the referendum but before triggering Article 50.

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
It is still a decision that was ultimately up to the British electorate to make and the referendum was the right thing to do. It was actually long over due IMHO.
The decision had to involve the British public's opinion, but the ultimate decision was (and still is) Parliament's. Parliament are legally bound to consider the result of the referendum, but not legally bound to agree with it if they deem it to harm the UK's interests. Those who promised that the referendum result would be enacted were doing so in the full knowledge that they had no legal right to do so.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 1:11 pm
  #147  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Great post DLD.

What do you think will be the next stage? Revised Chequers? Election? Referendum? Apparently, nobody is actually going permit No Deal (thank goodness) but I do wonder where we will be in a month's time?
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 1:26 pm
  #148  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
We haven't surrendered anything. We've been an active participant in shaping the direction of the EU, including being a leading supporter of the introduction of free movement.
And therein lies the problem. You've been quite vocal about your support for the youth vote on here but I didn't vote for freedom of movement. In fact the idea of it horrifies and deeply offends me yet it was thrust upon this country before I was born due to decisions made by those older than me. I also didn't vote for the EU to be expanded in the early 2000's and for the country to face an influx of Eastern and Southern Europeans either. That too was forced upon me.

The EU referendum is the first time I was ever invited to have a real say regarding Europe and I did just that. The fact that you and others didn't like what I had to say and my side won more votes than yours isn't really my fault.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 1:28 pm
  #149  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Great post DLD.

What do you think will be the next stage? Revised Chequers? Election? Referendum? Apparently, nobody is actually going permit No Deal (thank goodness) but I do wonder where we will be in a month's time?
Probably that.

The EU won't want more delay and turmoil, another snap GE in the UK or the idea of Corbyn at the reigns anymore than I do.
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Old Sep 21st 2018, 1:50 pm
  #150  
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Default Re: Politics of Chequers, No Deal, etc

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Are you insinuating that I don't? It's quite arrogant to assume that I want to see the country crash and burn because I don't agree with your belief system.
You said this...

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
And you are reinforcing your point that entitled pro-Remain supporters couldn't give a toss about anyone else or democracy so long as they get what they want.
What's up - you're allowed to make assumptions about what 'we' think but we're not supposed to do it back?

Think again sonny, it's not one-way traffic on here you know...

Last edited by jimenato; Sep 21st 2018 at 3:07 pm.
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