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Labour on the ropes

Labour on the ropes

Old Jun 26th 2020, 1:32 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: Labour on the ropes

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
She asked to speak with him but too late he'd already fired her.
Even she doesn't claim that, she said she had spoken to the leader's office and agreed a clarification, but then refused to take down her tweet, as instructed.

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Old Jun 26th 2020, 2:43 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: Labour on the ropes

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
It's an interesting one because we really don't know whether or not it is factually correct. And while I am very much a supporter of the state of Israel, I think for groups to alter definitions without wide consultation and agreement is problematic.
I'm sure at some point, some US Police forces trained on Krav Maga with Israeli trainers, especially in the early days of training abroad in Krav Maga. The same would be as likely with Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, Filipino Martial Arts and the likes of Judo and other stuff.

Eventually, US instructors such as these would have been trained

As for the sacking itself - it would have been better to have drawn her attention to the offending text and asked her to withdraw it/set that aside. Far too reactive, IMO, though there could be lots of other things going on behind the scenes and this could have been an opportunity that was just too good to miss. On the other hand it does look like yet another example of the emotional incontinence that has been sweeping the western world of late.
I suspect this was just the first excuse to be rid of her. The reson didn't matter.
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Old Jun 26th 2020, 2:52 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: Labour on the ropes

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
She was asked to withdraw it and refused ..... read the reports, not just the headlines.
Read her tweets, not what fake news told you.

....1m 9 secs into the video that I posted.
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Old Jun 26th 2020, 3:01 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: Labour on the ropes

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
Read her tweets, not what fake news told you.

....1m 9 secs into the video that I posted.
What, your video from the BBC as opposed to what is reported on the BBC website? Fake news, jeez, grow up.
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Old Jun 26th 2020, 3:09 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: Labour on the ropes

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
I'm sure at some point, some US Police forces trained on Krav Maga with Israeli trainers, especially in the early days of training abroad in Krav Maga. The same would be as likely with Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, Filipino Martial Arts and the likes of Judo and other stuff.

Eventually, US instructors such as these would have been trained
Not sure. Many years ago after observing how easily my Israeli friends at the time dealt with some attackers we encountered while on a night out in North London, I saw to it that my sons received Krav Maga training, and they've been doing it for years now. I asked them this evening about any knee on neck position and they said they've been trained to do anything like that and are not aware it's used at all in Krav Maga.

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
I suspect this was just the first excuse to be rid of her. The reson didn't matter.
Yep.


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Old Jun 26th 2020, 3:33 pm
  #36  
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Default Re: Labour on the ropes

I think the linkage of any criticism of Israel with anti-semitism is problematic, but that is where we are and Starmer has made it very clear that he wants to avoid any such claims about Labour going forward. Maxine Peak had no reason to link current issues with a swipe at the IDF, but chose to do so. Long-Bailey chose to retweet the article and was unwilling to take down that tweet when requested, despite being bound by shadow-cabinet rules. So, Starmer was left to decide between action or inaction.... and a whole mess of criticism that he had been weak and nothing had changed since his election as leader - plus losing face to a rival. The outcome was predictable... whether or not it was fortunate for him.
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Old Jun 26th 2020, 5:31 pm
  #37  
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Default Re: Labour on the ropes

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
Not sure. Many years ago after observing how easily my Israeli friends at the time dealt with some attackers we encountered while on a night out in North London, I saw to it that my sons received Krav Maga training, and they've been doing it for years now. I asked them this evening about any knee on neck position and they said they've been trained to do anything like that and are not aware it's used at all in Krav Maga.
Knee on neck is definitely NOT taught in Krav Maga, according to the 2 instructors I know well....

Did anyone suggest it was? I suspect it was a control thing passed from officer to officer, Minneapolis police rendered 44 people unconscious with neck restraints in five years.

Edit:

Certainly In the early 90's, door staff were using techniques that wouldn't be allowed these days. I wouldn't doubt that there are a minority who'd still do the same. This would apply to Police officers too.

Last edited by DaveLovesDee; Jun 26th 2020 at 5:41 pm.
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Old Jun 26th 2020, 6:36 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: Labour on the ropes

This Long Bailey thing has passed me by so I googled why it has become a leading news issue.
No doubt I'll get things wrong so I'll welcome any comment but this is what I understand has happened.
It apparently started when Long-Bailey retweeted an interview with actor and Labour supporter Maxine Peake.
A short summary from the BBC states:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-53183085
'In the article, Ms Peake discussed the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis.
She said: "The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services."
The Independent article also quoted the Israeli police denying Ms Peake's claim saying: "There is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway."
Later on Thursday, Ms Peake tweeted that she had been "inaccurate in my assumption of American police training and its sources".'

I interpret the subsequent sacking as having two distinct aspects, one a little disturbing and the other of a political nature.
Labour has had a well publicised issue with what has been termed 'anti-semitism'. This may or may not have been the case but it's clear that Labour has become extremely sensitive to any accusation of anti-semitism and the jewish community hasn't been slow in expressing it's disapproval of anti Israeli comments. In another BBC reference the following summary is contained:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52716716
'The Jewish Labour Movement has said it is "encouraged" by Sir Keir Starmer's commitment to change the party's rules and culture to eradicate anti-Semitism.
But following talks with Labour's leader, the group said it wanted to see "actions, not just words".
Issues discussed included Labour's response to an imminent report into its procedures by the equalities watchdog.
Sir Keir has promised an independent complaints process to help to rebuild trust among the Jewish community.'

Now, criticism of Israel is not the same as anti semitism, although it's convenient for some, especially supporters of Israel to equate the two and this appears to have been used in what appears to have been justified criticism of Maxine Peake and Long Bailey. Starmer will have beeen sensitive to this and in my opinion has used the linkage to rid himself of a political adversary.
This is a hostage to fortune.
All politicians stretch the truth and say things they regret. If Starmer had wanted to rid himself of Long he should have had the balls to sack her outright because he's the man at the top. What he apparently has done is used Long's retweet of Peake's flawed reference to an apparently non-existent Israeli security/police practice to justify Long's sacking by equating the tweet to anti-semitism and in my view it demonstrates a weakness in character and one that's apparently influenced by the jewish community.
He may have used this as a convenient excuse, but it will have left him weaker not stronger.
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Old Jun 27th 2020, 9:00 am
  #39  
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Default Re: Labour on the ropes

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Knee on neck is definitely NOT taught in Krav Maga, according to the 2 instructors I know well....

Did anyone suggest it was? I suspect it was a control thing passed from officer to officer, Minneapolis police rendered 44 people unconscious with neck restraints in five years.
KM hasn't been specifically mentioned except by people speculating - probably because KM is a self defense system developed in Israel. I was attracted to it 20-odd years ago for my sons' benefit because it teaches not just physical defence but also threat avoidance and de-escalation techniques. It's also focused on urban real life self defence scenarios like dealing with attacks from one or more people with knives, sticks/iron bars, swords, bottles and firearms or even attempted strangulation attacks. It's the swiss army knife of self defence training, IMO.
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Old Jun 27th 2020, 9:13 am
  #40  
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Default Re: Labour on the ropes

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
This Long Bailey thing has passed me by so I googled why it has become a leading news issue.
No doubt I'll get things wrong so I'll welcome any comment but this is what I understand has happened.
It apparently started when Long-Bailey retweeted an interview with actor and Labour supporter Maxine Peake.
A short summary from the BBC states:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-53183085
'In the article, Ms Peake discussed the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis.
She said: "The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services."
The Independent article also quoted the Israeli police denying Ms Peake's claim saying: "There is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway."
Later on Thursday, Ms Peake tweeted that she had been "inaccurate in my assumption of American police training and its sources".'

I interpret the subsequent sacking as having two distinct aspects, one a little disturbing and the other of a political nature.
Labour has had a well publicised issue with what has been termed 'anti-semitism'. This may or may not have been the case but it's clear that Labour has become extremely sensitive to any accusation of anti-semitism and the jewish community hasn't been slow in expressing it's disapproval of anti Israeli comments. In another BBC reference the following summary is contained:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52716716
'The Jewish Labour Movement has said it is "encouraged" by Sir Keir Starmer's commitment to change the party's rules and culture to eradicate anti-Semitism.
But following talks with Labour's leader, the group said it wanted to see "actions, not just words".
Issues discussed included Labour's response to an imminent report into its procedures by the equalities watchdog.
Sir Keir has promised an independent complaints process to help to rebuild trust among the Jewish community.'

Now, criticism of Israel is not the same as anti semitism, although it's convenient for some, especially supporters of Israel to equate the two and this appears to have been used in what appears to have been justified criticism of Maxine Peake and Long Bailey. Starmer will have beeen sensitive to this and in my opinion has used the linkage to rid himself of a political adversary.
This is a hostage to fortune.
All politicians stretch the truth and say things they regret. If Starmer had wanted to rid himself of Long he should have had the balls to sack her outright because he's the man at the top. What he apparently has done is used Long's retweet of Peake's flawed reference to an apparently non-existent Israeli security/police practice to justify Long's sacking by equating the tweet to anti-semitism and in my view it demonstrates a weakness in character and one that's apparently influenced by the jewish community.
He may have used this as a convenient excuse, but it will have left him weaker not stronger.
That matches my understanding of it. Completely agree with your "criticism of Israel is not the same as anti semitism" remark. But IMO, it would be reasonable to suggest that a person who does not believe in Israel's right to exist is anti-Semitic.

So yep, Sir Keir was wrong to sack her. But its his party, he can fire if he wants to....
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Old Jul 2nd 2020, 1:05 am
  #41  
 
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Default Re: Labour on the ropes

There is a factionalism element to RLB's sacking but I think it's overemphasised. As mentioned Starmer can reshuffle his shadow cabinet at will. Rather at the forefront of his mind must be that the EHRC report into antisemitism in the Labour Party is imminent and by all accounts it will be damning in its conclusions. By taking the hardest possible stance now he can point to concrete examples of where he has taken action since becoming leader as damage control when the story breaks.
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