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The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Old Nov 27th 2019, 4:21 pm
  #91  
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
Not talking about academies, I mentioned grammar and private schools....weirdly I thought they'd be popular with fans of Comrade Corbyn seeing he attended both.
Its the new thinking ( well in the USA it is ) Scrap the system you have and introduce these schools ( academies) that are semi private but also funded by the Government . They have a strict curriculum ( brainwhashing ) and if a pupil does not comply in every way they are expelled . Leaving them with the 'dregs' of underfunded state schools.which will lead them nowhere...These academies are flourishing in poor areas of the US .
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Old Nov 28th 2019, 1:12 am
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

We may be in for a rough five years.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-seat-majority

I can only hope that it ends up being the straw that finally breaks the camel's back of the country's tolerance for being screwed over, and they end up making him fall as they made Thatcher fall. Why people seem to be about to hand him the country is a mystery.
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Old Nov 28th 2019, 4:52 am
  #93  
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I don't know who the "they" is that you're referring to there but no, actually - we don't all know it.

Honestly, though, you Tory types do puzzle me sometimes. You're happy for your party to exploit some notion of "the elites" and yet at the first mention of the removing tax advantages from which only the truly wealthy benefit, you go all weak at the knees and start making all sorts of strange insinuations
'They' are Labour. You asked me about their manifesto and what was in it relating to our discussion. I must have made a good point though if you chose to deflect it

I'm happy to admit (unlike anyone on BE relating to any topic at any time it seems) that my radar's a bit off on that front. I was amazed at 80k puts you in the top 5%. I put 80k as a very good salary but not silly or in that sort of realm, for sure. I wonder how many on this forum have earned more than that at any point in their international careers? I bet quite a few actually.
Moving away from the schools again for a second - the important bit is that earning less than this salary you're still potentially going to be paying more in tax, even though Comrade Corbyn promises you won't. I think that's a lie, isn't it. Are we all going to jump up and down and start whining across multiple threads because of more political dishonesty? Don't answer. I know we'll just ignore it and blame Boris or the elites or something. That's much easier. Quick, say something about the NHS being up for sale.

Mrs May had a good quote years ago I saw somewhere. Labour want to take the advantages and enjoy them, but pull the ladder up behind them. It's about perfect I think.

Originally Posted by GeniB View Post
Its the new thinking ( well in the USA it is ) Scrap the system you have and introduce these schools ( academies) that are semi private but also funded by the Government . They have a strict curriculum ( brainwhashing ) and if a pupil does not comply in every way they are expelled . Leaving them with the 'dregs' of underfunded state schools.which will lead them nowhere...These academies are flourishing in poor areas of the US .
I don't think academies are great - I don't really know enough about them and their successes or failures to be honest. Underfunded schools in shitty areas with old, shitty buildings and resources need more funding. That's obvious. Private schools and grammar schools don't affect that need for funding or source.
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Old Nov 28th 2019, 7:42 am
  #94  
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
'They' are Labour. You asked me about their manifesto and what was in it relating to our discussion. I must have made a good point though if you chose to deflect it
You haven't made any good points at all.

You started out making some vague assertion that Jeremy Corby wanted to do something dastardly to private and grammar schools and when I asked you what it was you pointed to the removal of a tax benefit and made another wild accusation about real feelings held by an unspecific "they".

Right, you've cleared that up now, ta. The Labour Party in its entirety.

When you say they'd love to "go to town" on those schools above, what do you mean by that?
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Old Nov 28th 2019, 8:02 am
  #95  
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
We may be in for a rough five years.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-seat-majority

I can only hope that it ends up being the straw that finally breaks the camel's back of the country's tolerance for being screwed over, and they end up making him fall as they made Thatcher fall. Why people seem to be about to hand him the country is a mystery.
There's a really weird line in there about how the Labour anti-Semitism row hadn't surfaced a week ago when the poll started

Way to go yet, though. And Trump's visit to come.
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Old Nov 28th 2019, 8:06 am
  #96  
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
You haven't made any good points at all.

You started out making some vague assertion that Jeremy Corby wanted to do something dastardly to private and grammar schools and when I asked you what it was you pointed to the removal of a tax benefit and made another wild accusation about real feelings held by an unspecific "they".

Right, you've cleared that up now, ta. The Labour Party in its entirety.

When you say they'd love to "go to town" on those schools above, what do you mean by that?
I disagree. I was really clear. If you want to debate that, it's fine but I even explained it. Disliking the way I did it is fine but the content was there even if you chose not to follow who was being discussed and then spin it to suit. What's the point in answering you? There's a smart arse or smug response to everything - apart from the bits like Corbyn being loose with the truth - we'll just cut that bit out eh?
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Old Nov 28th 2019, 3:41 pm
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
There's a really weird line in there about how the Labour anti-Semitism row hadn't surfaced a week ago when the poll started

Way to go yet, though. And Trump's visit to come.
Yes that was a bit odd. I assumed sloppy writing but who knows. Labour has a good ground game and I certainly don't count them out but the effectiveness of the Johnson sloganeering is depressing. "Get brexit done" - simple, devoid of specific content, and a complete deflection from actual tory policy.
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Old Nov 28th 2019, 6:41 pm
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Yes that was a bit odd. I assumed sloppy writing but who knows. Labour has a good ground game and I certainly don't count them out but the effectiveness of the Johnson sloganeering is depressing. "Get brexit done" - simple, devoid of specific content, and a complete deflection from actual tory policy.
Nil desperandum.
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Old Nov 28th 2019, 7:53 pm
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Nil desperandum.
Yeah. KBO.
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Old Nov 29th 2019, 9:46 am
  #100  
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Them bloody interlectuals. Foreigners. Too lazy to learn or speak proper English (Nil desperandum - what kind of foreign is that?) That's why they're all unemployed in their own countries. Also because they drive on the wrong side of the road. And drink foreign beer.
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Old Nov 29th 2019, 11:00 am
  #101  
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
I'm happy to admit (unlike anyone on BE relating to any topic at any time it seems) that my radar's a bit off on that front. I was amazed at 80k puts you in the top 5%. I put 80k as a very good salary but not silly or in that sort of realm, for sure.
You're right, 80k isn't a "silly" salary. It will make you comfortably off, but you won't be flying a Lear Jet or sailing your own yacht (not one of respectable proportions). You won't have full-time domestic staff. Your lifestyle will be largely a typical middle-class existence. You might drive a Jaguar rather than a Ford, but ultimately they're both just "a car".

You only have to consider that one person with an average salary is earning 40k, so for a couple, the difference between 40k and 80k is the difference between the wife earning the same versus staying at home to look after the children. (Apologies if that sounds sexist, but that's the reality.)

And yet, it isn't sufficiently appreciated among the better-off that the vast majority of people in the UK are way short of this figure. They are either on the breadline - that's what the minimum wage means - or living a fairly modest middle-class existence without oodles of cash to spare. An existence in which redundancy or even just the need for a head gasket job on the car is financially painful.

The reason is simple: people move in much the same circles. If you earn 80k, you will have some contact with poorer people, but those earning much the same as you will seem to be far more prevalent than they actually are. This blinds people to reality. There was an article in the DT a couple of years ago which, had it been in the Guardian, would have been considered satire: a family from the "struggling middle". They were, so it was described, just about getting by. But they were sending both sons to expensive "public" (i.e. private) schools. The fees for those schools are more than some people earn. Only 7% of children in the UK attend fee-paying schools; not doing so is "normal". Yet this family regarded themselves as "struggling". This is what comes of moving only in your own circles - in this case, circles in which private education is taken as a given.

Thatcher and Blair both made the same mistake: they viewed poverty from a middle-class perspective, and they did so because they too were too influenced by their own circles. Both thought the solution was to help the poor up into the middle class. Thatcher thought they should all own their own homes, Blair thought they should all go to university. If you live in London, owning your own home and having a degree are indeed very helpful. But in vast parts of the UK, it helps you very little if you own your own home or have a BA in a non-vocational subject. There simply aren't enough jobs, at least not for a comfortable middle-class existence.
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Old Nov 29th 2019, 11:20 am
  #102  
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
You're right, 80k isn't a "silly" salary. It will make you comfortably off, but you won't be flying a Lear Jet or sailing your own yacht (not one of respectable proportions). You won't have full-time domestic staff. Your lifestyle will be largely a typical middle-class existence. You might drive a Jaguar rather than a Ford, but ultimately they're both just "a car".

You only have to consider that one person with an average salary is earning 40k, so for a couple, the difference between 40k and 80k is the difference between the wife earning the same versus staying at home to look after the children. (Apologies if that sounds sexist, but that's the reality.)

And yet, it isn't sufficiently appreciated among the better-off that the vast majority of people in the UK are way short of this figure. They are either on the breadline - that's what the minimum wage means - or living a fairly modest middle-class existence without oodles of cash to spare. An existence in which redundancy or even just the need for a head gasket job on the car is financially painful.

The reason is simple: people move in much the same circles. If you earn 80k, you will have some contact with poorer people, but those earning much the same as you will seem to be far more prevalent than they actually are. This blinds people to reality. There was an article in the DT a couple of years ago which, had it been in the Guardian, would have been considered satire: a family from the "struggling middle". They were, so it was described, just about getting by. But they were sending both sons to expensive "public" (i.e. private) schools. The fees for those schools are more than some people earn. Only 7% of children in the UK attend fee-paying schools; not doing so is "normal". Yet this family regarded themselves as "struggling". This is what comes of moving only in your own circles - in this case, circles in which private education is taken as a given.

Thatcher and Blair both made the same mistake: they viewed poverty from a middle-class perspective, and they did so because they too were too influenced by their own circles. Both thought the solution was to help the poor up into the middle class. Thatcher thought they should all own their own homes, Blair thought they should all go to university. If you live in London, owning your own home and having a degree are indeed very helpful. But in vast parts of the UK, it helps you very little if you own your own home or have a BA in a non-vocational subject. There simply aren't enough jobs, at least not for a comfortable middle-class existence.
Excellent post
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Old Nov 29th 2019, 1:50 pm
  #103  
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
You only have to consider that one person with an average salary is earning 40k...
Assuming we're talking ££ I think that's a little high. I believe it's more like £28k now.
And yet, it isn't sufficiently appreciated among the better-off that the vast majority of people in the UK are way short of this figure.
Absolutely. I remember reading a letter in the guardian many years ago from someone receiving a "moderate" salary of £26k. I was on about £11k at the time.
I can't find it right now - too many google results on the £80000 figures - but it was only about three years ago I posted something on BE and another forum about half or nearly half the UK population earning less than £20k or £22k.

..people move in much the same circles. If you earn 80k, you will have some contact with poorer people, but those earning much the same as you will seem to be far more prevalent than they actually are. This blinds people to reality.
Oh yes.
A common question in the Canada forums is "is $X a good salary" and a common answer is "It's do-able but you won't have many luxuries on that." A few years ago X = $60k but the latest I've seen is $120k. Average Canadian salary is about $56k.

It would seem that - probably like many countries around the world - a significant number of Brits have moved because they are in demand (even head hunted sometimes) with employers forking out for relocation costs and they consider their salaries and the same annual leave allowances they got in the UK as normal while Canadians typically get two weeks only.
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Old Dec 5th 2019, 6:48 am
  #104  
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
You're right, 80k isn't a "silly" salary. It will make you comfortably off, but you won't be flying a Lear Jet or sailing your own yacht (not one of respectable proportions). You won't have full-time domestic staff. Your lifestyle will be largely a typical middle-class existence. You might drive a Jaguar rather than a Ford, but ultimately they're both just "a car".

You only have to consider that one person with an average salary is earning 40k, so for a couple, the difference between 40k and 80k is the difference between the wife earning the same versus staying at home to look after the children. (Apologies if that sounds sexist, but that's the reality.)

And yet, it isn't sufficiently appreciated among the better-off that the vast majority of people in the UK are way short of this figure. They are either on the breadline - that's what the minimum wage means - or living a fairly modest middle-class existence without oodles of cash to spare. An existence in which redundancy or even just the need for a head gasket job on the car is financially painful.

The reason is simple: people move in much the same circles. If you earn 80k, you will have some contact with poorer people, but those earning much the same as you will seem to be far more prevalent than they actually are. This blinds people to reality. There was an article in the DT a couple of years ago which, had it been in the Guardian, would have been considered satire: a family from the "struggling middle". They were, so it was described, just about getting by. But they were sending both sons to expensive "public" (i.e. private) schools. The fees for those schools are more than some people earn. Only 7% of children in the UK attend fee-paying schools; not doing so is "normal". Yet this family regarded themselves as "struggling". This is what comes of moving only in your own circles - in this case, circles in which private education is taken as a given.

Thatcher and Blair both made the same mistake: they viewed poverty from a middle-class perspective, and they did so because they too were too influenced by their own circles. Both thought the solution was to help the poor up into the middle class. Thatcher thought they should all own their own homes, Blair thought they should all go to university. If you live in London, owning your own home and having a degree are indeed very helpful. But in vast parts of the UK, it helps you very little if you own your own home or have a BA in a non-vocational subject. There simply aren't enough jobs, at least not for a comfortable middle-class existence.
Thanks for sharing some great thoughts. I'm shocked by the income breakdowns, I only found older data and know the average is around the 28k mark at the moment but the spread of it is shocking.
I'm not surprised and agree people move in similar circles, why wouldn't they? If their kids are at fee-paying schools then they're the parents they'll meet more regularly etc. If they work in the city in a big time job they'll mix with similar, if they're a teacher on average money, they'll mix with similar. Comparing yourself within that circle is good and bad. It's a way to garner aspiration to want to progress possibly, maybe it's a way of comparing to others and being 'best in class' (that's a terrible phrase for it but it illustrates the point I think).

Lots of governments will try lots of things to help people progress. What's the best solution? No idea. Not sure anyone has a great idea. Raiding the wealthy and the elites never works, it never happens, it's unrealistic and I genuinely think that the punishment falls below those who are the true mega-rich to those families on that 80k salary.

Poverty is a huge issue, the UK is in line with the EU average at present I think, which is a good benchmark but we're better than average, we should be doing what we can to bring as many people out of that situation. Unfortunately, those in poverty can be there and be stuck there for reasons out of their control. It's not just employment or low wages, it's those who are receiving support and benefits are likely to be in relative poverty because those numbers won't ever stack up to get them out of it. Let's also not forget though, that taking a huge mortgage as a first time buyer you probably put yourself in poverty with the repayments and average earnings etc....yet you're a homeowner investing in a huge asset. Anyway, I'm sort of rambling and don't want to diminish the issue as a whole, it's a very misleading, confusing and there are avenues to go down that descend any discussions into far too narrow channels.
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Old Dec 5th 2019, 5:50 pm
  #105  
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Default Re: The great big Electile Dysfunction thread....

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
I'm not surprised and agree people move in similar circles, why wouldn't they? If their kids are at fee-paying schools then they're the parents they'll meet more regularly etc. If they work in the city in a big time job they'll mix with similar, if they're a teacher on average money, they'll mix with similar.
No doubt it's all true but the complete lack of awareness is something to consider, no?

How come the single parent on benefits; the low waged 'burger flipper' (I hate that expression but it's handy for this); the barely better paid call centre worker and all the rest know that there are rich people with vastly different lives while the rich people don't appear to know the reverse?

Just because one moves in different circles why is that reason to not know of others? How come someone who has been the sort of person to pass through a high level of edumacation to get into high salaried employment doesn't have a clue that they are very well paid?

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