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Deprivation and poverty...

Deprivation and poverty...

Old Apr 13th 2021, 12:04 pm
  #196  
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
It depends. How long is it?



That does sound convenient but the ear could provide the waxed version. It might even dispense a whole candle.
Who are you? Father Jack?

I'm not sure a nose version would be so popular.
You would be known as Nostrildamus!
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 12:05 pm
  #197  
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
It's the last para that troubles me a little.
Small-fry though?
I really don't mind that a handful get something for nothing if others have a door opened to get more something for something. Maybe eventually their thinking gets changed.

Maybe they get bored with not having to "play the system" to get that minimum level of income.
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 12:09 pm
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Small-fry though?
I really don't mind that a handful get something for nothing if others have a door opened to get more something for something. Maybe eventually their thinking gets changed.

Maybe they get bored with not having to "play the system" to get that minimum level of income.
In Hungary there is a strong work ethic (in communist times you could be imprisoned for persistent unemployment) and I agree, "Don't wants to" will be a very small number. In the UK the work ethic is not as deeply embedded.
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 12:21 pm
  #199  
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Interesting piece from (ex)MP for Birkenhead, UK, Frank Field (whom I had the privilege of meeting many years ago) -

Working the benefit

17
Aug
Last week I reported that over 2,500 applications had been received for the ASDA jobs. The work ethic is alive and well in Birkenhead.

That number however drives home the point of just how many people would be working in Birkenhead if the jobs were available.

But that does not mean that everyone is as keen to work as these 2,500 applicants. There are some constituents who have never worked since leaving school, who have totally unrealistic aspirations about the jobs they will accept, and are in denial over what they can offer an employer.

Of course these younger constituents have to take some of the responsibility for their own predicament. But I think an equal culprit is our political system. Successive governments have been reluctant to bring some young claimants’ demands about jobs and pay into the realms of reality.

The one really good move the last Labour Government did was to introduce the Future Jobs Fund. Dole money was used to offer places with real employers.

Once we have such a scheme again I believe we should cease paying benefits to young people who disregard such a scheme. Young people will be working for their benefit and gaining real work experience in the process.

Each of them would know what is required about getting up on time, of fitting in with one’s workmates, and putting in a day’s work. This will make the chances of getting the next job that much more realisable.
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 12:27 pm
  #200  
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
Interesting piece from (ex)MP for Birkenhead, UK, Frank Field (whom I had the privilege of meeting many years ago) -
What is the difference between "working for their benefit" and "having a job"?
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 12:37 pm
  #201  
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
"The one really good move the last Labour Government did was to introduce the Future Jobs Fund. Dole money was used to offer places with real employers."
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
What is the difference between "working for their benefit" and "having a job"?
I wasn't familiar with that but I found this on wiki -
It was cut by the Coalition government, Prime Minister David Cameron claiming the scheme was "expensive, badly targeted and did not work".
That alone seems to be a good enough reason to think it had some merits.
However, a 2012 report by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) found that the scheme produced a net benefit though tax receipts and a reduced benefits bill. It estimated that the FJF programme resulted in:
  • a net benefit to participants of approximately £4,000 per participant
  • a net benefit to employers of approximately £6,850 per participant
  • a net cost to the Exchequer of approximately £3,100 per participant
  • a net benefit to society of approximately £7,750 per participant
Under the baseline assumptions, the total net cost of the programme to the Exchequer was estimated to be approximately £330m. The gross cost to the Exchequer was approximately £720m but it is estimated to have recouped roughly 50 pence for each pound that was spent on the programme.
Maybe there may have been long term gains too, if it continued.
Or at least the avoidance of longer term problems.
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 12:45 pm
  #202  
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
I wasn't familiar with that but I found this on wiki -

That alone seems to be a good enough reason to think it had some merits.
Maybe there may have been long term gains too, if it continued.
Or at least the avoidance of longer term problems.

Sure, but I meant it a bit more literally. Why would one create a special "work for your benefits" programme rather than an ordinary jobs programme, since having a job is 'working for your benefits' really, and carries all the same social and tax benefits, no?
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 12:59 pm
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Sure, but I meant it a bit more literally. Why would one create a special "work for your benefits" programme rather than an ordinary jobs programme, since having a job is 'working for your benefits' really, and carries all the same social and tax benefits, no?
What do you mean by "an ordinary jobs programme"?
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 1:02 pm
  #204  
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
As for disincentive to work, as long as there's a sufficient gain from working, that's a pretty good incentive. Not enough is done about that currently.

The current system that tries to get people who just don't want to work into work is to a certain extent a disadvantage for those who do. Resources are used on those people that could better be used on the enthusiastic. And maybe forcing people into taking a job they don't want at the expense of those who do is actually not a good idea for employees and employers.
For me, the advantages could be encouraging those who choose not to work to volunteer instead. UBI could also allow more working parents to be able to afford to stay home with the children in their early years. These things just require a little creative thinking.



Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
What is the difference between "working for their benefit" and "having a job"?
Working for their benefits used to get the claimant an extra £10 pw on their benefits plus their travel costs paid for a period of what is effectively work experience. I did that when I was unemployed for a while, and while I felt it was cheap labour for the employer, it go me out of the house, meet new people, and I was offered a job with a different employer when one of their managers was impressed with my customer service when shopping in our store as a customer and we were talking. So it was a win for me personally,
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 1:04 pm
  #205  
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
What do you mean by "an ordinary jobs programme"?
In the smaller sense, Roosevelt-style jobs creation with WPA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_...Administration

In the larger sense, investment in education, housing and social welfare early on, so that people are in an employable state when they reach the age, and second, investment in the businesses, industries and infrastructure to help the most deprived areas of the UK have actual economic opportunity. For example, Liverpool itself is doing much better, finally, but many of its surrounding areas are still desperate. There's little to nothing there.
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 1:07 pm
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post


Working for their benefits used to get the claimant an extra £10 pw on their benefits plus their travel costs paid for a period of what is effectively work experience. I did that when I was unemployed for a while, and while I felt it was cheap labour for the employer, it go me out of the house, meet new people, and I was offered a job with a different employer when one of their managers was impressed with my customer service when shopping in our store as a customer and we were talking. So it was a win for me personally,
If it's needed work experience that leads to an actual job, and if the 'programme' is what is getting an otherwise reluctant employer to take that person on, then sure, sounds like a good idea. It it's just a mill of low-paid labour, whereby people are cycled out of the subsidized positions at the end of the period and not moved to permanent jobs then not so much. I'm sure it would help some people anyway, but perhaps real, paid apprenticeships would be a better way to go?
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 1:27 pm
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post

I generally get about three more uses from toothpaste when I think I've done enough.
Comfortable old T-Shirts often get to the point where there's a big hole in the back. I just wear a fleece or something so it doesn't show. As long as my head doesn't go through the hole that shouldn't be there when I'm putting it on or taking it off it's still good.
Funnily enough, we've got a 'key' thing that gets every drop out of a tube. It just so happens to be from L'Occitane - so I'm still more than capable of throwing money away on silly things. I just often find the basics far harder to waste.
There's also a huge difference in quality of expensive items, take shoes. I buy Loakes because I am lucky enough to afford 200 quid loafers or Oxfords etc. I wear them daily. If I were not lucky enough to afford them, I'd be buying 20quid leathers from a supermarket or similar and replacing them every few months I expect.
It's not easy having less and being able to keep up.
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 1:32 pm
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
...It it's just a mill of low-paid labour, whereby people are cycled out of the subsidized positions at the end of the period and not moved to permanent jobs then not so much.

YOPS and YTS - notorious for seeing one lot of young'uns out the door to be replaced by the next lot.
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 1:35 pm
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
If it's needed work experience that leads to an actual job, and if the 'programme' is what is getting an otherwise reluctant employer to take that person on, then sure, sounds like a good idea. It it's just a mill of low-paid labour, whereby people are cycled out of the subsidized positions at the end of the period and not moved to permanent jobs then not so much. I'm sure it would help some people anyway, but perhaps real, paid apprenticeships would be a better way to go?

I have an issue with the government's definition of pay rates for apprentices. Here are the minimum wage rates from 1st April this year..

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

23 and over 21 to 22 18 to 20 Under 18 Apprentice
£8.91 £8.36 £6.56 £4.62 £4.30

Apprentices

Apprentices are entitled to the apprentice rate if they’re either:
  • aged under 19
  • aged 19 or over and in the first year of their apprenticeship
Example: An apprentice aged 21 in the first year of their apprenticeship is entitled to a minimum hourly rate of £4.30.

Apprentices are entitled to the minimum wage for their age if they both:
  • are aged 19 or over
  • have completed the first year of their apprenticeshipExample: An apprentice aged 21 who has completed the first year of their apprenticeship is entitled to a minimum hourly rate of £8.36.

Why is a first-year apprentice worth a little of half of a second-year apprentice? I can appreciate there's a difference in experience level, but £4.30ph isn't an incentive to want to start an apprenticeship at 18 or above when you can get a retail job paying at least £6.56ph. And many companies ar actually paying the full £8.91 for everyone, even those they can legally pay at the lower age rate because it makes payroll simpler.

40 hour apprenticeship or 25hrs retail? Both give around £172 pw, but one means more free time. Which one seems more appealing to an 18 year old? And which one is more flexible for a college student studying for a career?

First-year apprentice pay needs to be realistic to attract people.
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Old Apr 13th 2021, 1:36 pm
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Default Re: Deprivation and poverty...

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post

YOPS and YTS - notorious for seeing one lot of young'uns out the door to be replaced by the next lot.
And Workfare, which was ruled illegal in the courts for the same reasoning.
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