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Climate change.

Climate change.

Old Jun 11th 2021, 12:37 am
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
It's ignorance of the physical world expressed by those who would set themselves up to tell the rest of us how to behave that's astounding.
It's so beyond reason on so many levels that I hardly know where to begin.
The fact that the concept actually made it's way to his lips via what passes for a brain betrays just how little the man understands.
On the one hand the man simply doesn't understand how much energy is required to move the moon just 1mm in it's orbit and on the other has no grasp for consequences of such action.
The mass of the moon is 7.347 x 1022 kg, that's about 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kg., and I doubt the man knows what a kg is but I bet he owns shares in a crane manufacturing company and thought.......
Gohmert is just thick. He even blamed having to wear a mask for his covid-19 infection.
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Old Jun 11th 2021, 12:39 am
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Never seen grapefruit wrapped up individually; even together only netted.
Weird when they come in their own 'packaging'
Cookies are what gets my goat. Boxes or a packet and then with a sectioned tray inside, with cookies that take up about half the volume.
Go to Japan and you can watch some shoppers wrap items already wrapped in plastic into individual plastic bags.

One solution is to buy local produce, where possible, and to avoid shops that do this kind of over-use of plastic.
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Old Jun 11th 2021, 1:04 am
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Never seen grapefruit wrapped up individually; even together only netted.
Weird when they come in their own 'packaging'
Cookies are what gets my goat. Boxes or a packet and then with a sectioned tray inside, with cookies that take up about half the volume.
I have only seen it done at T&T Market for grape fruit and such, they seem to go on steroids when it comes to plastic, not sure why.


We tried last summer to buy local fruits since there was a fruit stand literally across the street and many within a 10-12 minute drive, but dang is local expensive, so end up reverting back to grocery store fruits, cherries local at the farm were like $5/lb vs a low of $1.99/lb for imported from Washington state, pretty much like this for all BC produce, the US/Mexico/Chile imports are almost always cheaper.

I can't tell the difference between a BC cherry and a Washington state cherry, so I can't justify paying more than double the price for BC grown.

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Old Jun 11th 2021, 6:00 am
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
I got to thinking yesterday while doing a delivery, that a lot of produce comes wrapped in plastic to extend shelf life.

I wonder what is worse for the planet, shorter shelf life and more organic waste that could be composted or extending shelf life by wrapping in plastic?

Cucumbers, broccoli, cauliflower seems to be the worst offenders in main stream grocery stores, at T&T market you will find even more plastic and Styrofoam as they will shrink wrap just 1 piece of fruit, bakery section too, all the baked in store baked goods all come in plastic containers, actually amazing how much single use plastic there is in a typical grocery store.

That is rather excessive! There was a move away from 'loose stuff' during the height of Covid; I even stopped buying certain 'loose' items after watching customers fondle them (and our local Sprouts and Whole Foods stopped selling 'bulk' stuff like oats and rice). But what you are showing here is a new level to me! And isn't styrofoam outlawed these days? Maybe it's just California? All 'fast food' has to be in biodegradable paper-based products nowadays.
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Old Jun 11th 2021, 6:09 am
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
That is rather excessive! There was a move away from 'loose stuff' during the height of Covid; I even stopped buying certain 'loose' items after watching customers fondle them (and our local Sprouts and Whole Foods stopped selling 'bulk' stuff like oats and rice). But what you are showing here is a new level to me! And isn't styrofoam outlawed these days? Maybe it's just California? All 'fast food' has to be in biodegradable paper-based products nowadays.
This isn't just for COVID T&T Market was doing it pre-COVID, I honestly don't know why they do it as it seems like more work on their end as well.

Styrofoam isn't banned provincewide, there is some spotty city by-law bans, Vancouver for instance bans certain uses of Styrofoam but its pretty limited in general.

I have noticed with meats at some grocery stores they have replaced Styrofoam trays with a plastic tray, no idea which one is worse over all, maybe time to bring back the meat counter and package meat into butcher paper like the old days, heck when I was a kid, our grocery store was doing packing meat that way into the late 80's, but now only a few full service supermarkets left with a meat counter, most now just bring in pre-packaged meat and no meat counter at all, it all comes it cut, packaged and ready to sell.

I guess from a grocery store owner perspective, butchers are expensive, which is probably why most seem to have done away with them in store.






https://vancouver.ca/green-vancouver/foam-ban.aspx




Last edited by Jsmth321; Jun 11th 2021 at 6:11 am.
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Old Jun 11th 2021, 6:14 am
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
This isn't just for COVID T&T Market was doing it pre-COVID, I honestly don't know why they do it as it seems like more work on their end as well.

Styrofoam isn't banned provincewide, there is some spotty city by-law bans, Vancouver for instance bans certain uses of Styrofoam but its pretty limited in general.

I have noticed with meats at some grocery stores they have replaced Styrofoam trays with a plastic tray, no idea which one is worse over all, maybe time to bring back the meat counter and package meat into butcher paper like the old days, heck when I was a kid, our grocery store was doing packing meat that way into the late 80's, but now only a few full service supermarkets left with a meat counter, most now just bring in pre-packaged meat and no meat counter at all, it all comes it cut, packaged and ready to sell.

I guess from a grocery store owner perspective, butchers are expensive, which is probably why most seem to have done away with them in store.

https://vancouver.ca/green-vancouver/foam-ban.aspx
Yeah, these bans are hard to keep track of! In the Bay Area, they banned plastic bags eons ago. In Arizona, the state passed a law PREVENTING any local jurisdiction from passing any such bans! So plastic bags are alive and well in Arizona!
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Old Jun 11th 2021, 6:29 am
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
Yeah, these bans are hard to keep track of! In the Bay Area, they banned plastic bags eons ago. In Arizona, the state passed a law PREVENTING any local jurisdiction from passing any such bans! So plastic bags are alive and well in Arizona!
Plastic bag bans are also patchwork, province seems to mostly be leaving it up to each city to decide, no province wide ban, but a handful of city's have some level of ban, but its far from being a lot.

I noticed in So California when plastic bag bans went into affect my first visit stores were selling paper bags, then the next visit and each after (as of my last in 2019) I noticed the stores have plastic bags again, except now the plastic is thicker, and they print reusable bag onto the bag, guess they found a loophole?

This type of bag, the ones at Target said made in France so they even came quite a long way from point of manufacture.



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Old Jun 11th 2021, 9:48 am
  #578  
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
I got to thinking yesterday while doing a delivery, that a lot of produce comes wrapped in plastic to extend shelf life.

I wonder what is worse for the planet, shorter shelf life and more organic waste that could be composted or extending shelf life by wrapping in plastic?

Cucumbers, broccoli, cauliflower seems to be the worst offenders in main stream grocery stores, at T&T market you will find even more plastic and Styrofoam as they will shrink wrap just 1 piece of fruit, bakery section too, all the baked in store baked goods all come in plastic containers, actually amazing how much single use plastic there is in a typical grocery store.

I've seen customers feeling the fruit to decide which one they want. They didn't sanitise their hands beforehand, or use a plastic bag to cover their hands. At least packaged, there's an extra barrier to people's stupidity or lack of care.

Personally, I'm of the opinion these days of 'you handle it, you buy it'...

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Never seen grapefruit wrapped up individually; even together only netted.
Weird when they come in their own 'packaging'
Cookies are what gets my goat. Boxes or a packet and then with a sectioned tray inside, with cookies that take up about half the volume.
The trays are to stop the cookies rolling out when you have the open package on the counter. But a thin card tray would be better than plastic, though I think the pre-formed plastic is probably cheaper.
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Old Jun 11th 2021, 10:08 am
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
I've seen customers feeling the fruit to decide which one they want. They didn't sanitise their hands beforehand, or use a plastic bag to cover their hands. At least packaged, there's an extra barrier to people's stupidity or lack of care.

Personally, I'm of the opinion these days of 'you handle it, you buy it'...



The trays are to stop the cookies rolling out when you have the open package on the counter. But a thin card tray would be better than plastic, though I think the pre-formed plastic is probably cheaper.

Not sure handling matters in reality after all much fruit and veg is grown outside and not under glass, so any insects or animals can handle it'! On market stalls get handling, Its just the thought that upsets! Certainly squeezing and damaging is wrong.

(I remember in post war years tins of broken biscuits were put outside shops, people just filled a bag by hand, took it into the shop to pay----although they also had counter- bacon slicers that frequently cut off assistants fingers! So some improvements!)
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Old Jun 11th 2021, 10:48 am
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Not sure handling matters in reality after all much fruit and veg is grown outside and not under glass, so any insects or animals can handle it'! On market stalls get handling, Its just the thought that upsets! Certainly squeezing and damaging is wrong.
Pesticides and the washing of fruit prior to packaging tends to solve the insect and animals problem. The fruit doesn't get washed again after customers touching the fruit in store.

Something else that annoys me are people standing at the magazine section reading the magazine then putting it back. This is not a library, either put it back, or pay for it.
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Old Jun 11th 2021, 5:28 pm
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
Plastic bag bans are also patchwork, province seems to mostly be leaving it up to each city to decide, no province wide ban, but a handful of city's have some level of ban, but its far from being a lot.

I noticed in So California when plastic bag bans went into affect my first visit stores were selling paper bags, then the next visit and each after (as of my last in 2019) I noticed the stores have plastic bags again, except now the plastic is thicker, and they print reusable bag onto the bag, guess they found a loophole?
The California State law - which superceded local laws - bans single-use plastic bags and imposes a charge for all bags paper or plastic. Some of the reusable bags seem to be biodegradable, but that isn't a legal requirement.
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Old Jun 11th 2021, 7:13 pm
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by Giantaxe View Post
The California State law - which superceded local laws - bans single-use plastic bags and imposes a charge for all bags paper or plastic. Some of the reusable bags seem to be biodegradable, but that isn't a legal requirement.
But that got suspended, did it not, for Covid? Or is the devil in the details of 'single-use' here? I've observed the same as JSmith in CA; pre-Covid, they got rid of flimsy, ultra-thin plastic bags and encouraged you to use your own re-usable bag. But if you didn't want or have a re-usable, they would SELL you a paper bag, for a fee. But more recently, they've started selling much thicker plastic bags, which are labeled as 're-usable'. They seem to be offering these 're-usable', thicker plastics much more aggressively than the paper bags.

In our case, we've wholeheartedly adopted the re-usable bags. But their use was banned / suspended due to Covid, and we were reluctantly forced to take the plastic alternative in some cases (Safeway, as an example, only seem to offer the thick plastics, and not the paper; Trader Joe's have introduced the thicker plastics also, and either don't offer the paper bags, or, don't encourage them). Thinking more about this ... when the state banned 'customer owned re-usables' due to Covid, they dropped the 'fee' requirement on plastics and paper. I believe they have now re-imposed the fee, and also, removed the ban on 'customer owned re-usables'.

But this movement away from sturdy paper to thick plastic bags, for a fee, seems to be somewhat permanent. They aren't as easy to 're-use' as either the paper bags, or the 'customer owned reusables', so this seems to be a trend in the wrong direction in my mind.

I have a huge bag-full of these things in the garage at the moment, waiting to find the best recycle option for them. 'Trex' - the synthetic decking people - have a program where they take the single-use plastics and turn them into decking. I'm trying to see if I can get them to collect at my local Safeway.


Clockwise from top left - Customer-owned re-usable; paper re-usable; plastic re-usable; single-use plastic

Last edited by Steerpike; Jun 11th 2021 at 7:16 pm.
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Old Jun 11th 2021, 11:58 pm
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
But that got suspended, did it not, for Covid? Or is the devil in the details of 'single-use' here? I've observed the same as JSmith in CA; pre-Covid, they got rid of flimsy, ultra-thin plastic bags and encouraged you to use your own re-usable bag. But if you didn't want or have a re-usable, they would SELL you a paper bag, for a fee. But more recently, they've started selling much thicker plastic bags, which are labeled as 're-usable'. They seem to be offering these 're-usable', thicker plastics much more aggressively than the paper bags.

In our case, we've wholeheartedly adopted the re-usable bags. But their use was banned / suspended due to Covid, and we were reluctantly forced to take the plastic alternative in some cases (Safeway, as an example, only seem to offer the thick plastics, and not the paper; Trader Joe's have introduced the thicker plastics also, and either don't offer the paper bags, or, don't encourage them). Thinking more about this ... when the state banned 'customer owned re-usables' due to Covid, they dropped the 'fee' requirement on plastics and paper. I believe they have now re-imposed the fee, and also, removed the ban on 'customer owned re-usables'.
Single-use plastic bags never became legal during covid. As you say, customer owned reusable bags were banned at various points depending on what colour code your county was in. Last time I went to Trader Joes, you could use your own reusable bags, but you had to bag your own groceries. If you paid for a new reusable bag or a new paper bag, they would bag for you. All restrictions are going away on June 15th.

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
But this movement away from sturdy paper to thick plastic bags, for a fee, seems to be somewhat permanent. They aren't as easy to 're-use' as either the paper bags, or the 'customer owned reusables', so this seems to be a trend in the wrong direction in my mind.
That's not what I'm seeing in San Francisco or San Mateo counties. Typically, I can either take my own bags (paper or reusable) or buy either type, with paper at 5c (?) and reusable a lot more. I haven't seen what you are describing as "plastic re-usable" in your picture at any supermarket I go to, even Trader Joes.

I am happy to see single-use plastic bags go away. Every waterway and bank seemed to be littered with these things. Now that's a much less common sight.


Last edited by Giantaxe; Jun 12th 2021 at 12:03 am.
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Old Jun 12th 2021, 7:10 pm
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by Giantaxe View Post
Single-use plastic bags never became legal during covid. As you say, customer owned reusable bags were banned at various points depending on what colour code your county was in. Last time I went to Trader Joes, you could use your own reusable bags, but you had to bag your own groceries. If you paid for a new reusable bag or a new paper bag, they would bag for you. All restrictions are going away on June 15th.



That's not what I'm seeing in San Francisco or San Mateo counties. Typically, I can either take my own bags (paper or reusable) or buy either type, with paper at 5c (?) and reusable a lot more. I haven't seen what you are describing as "plastic re-usable" in your picture at any supermarket I go to, even Trader Joes.

I am happy to see single-use plastic bags go away. Every waterway and bank seemed to be littered with these things. Now that's a much less common sight.
The best thing is, as you say, the single-use bags have gone away in CA, and they didn't even return temporarily during Covid. Given that CA has 40 million people, that's no small achievement. But not so in Arizona - they are alive and well, and heavily used in 'mainstream' stores like Safeway, Fry's, etc. The 'better' stores, like TJ's and Whole Foods, don't offer them at all, offering either paper or 're-usable' plastics (with no fee), or you can buy a 'heavy duty' re-usable.

But back to California ... the 'paper' bags are obvious, but the 're-usable' plastic situation is confusing. When I was in the Bay Area in May, you could buy a 'heavy duty' re-usable at the store; these were offered for purchase at/near the checkout, but you have to pick them out yourself, and they cost 'a few dollars' (as I recall). These are heavy duty, have a 'woven' feel, and have cloth-like handles. I believe they are made from recycled plastic (hence the confusion). That's what I'm calling a 'customer owned re-usable' -


These have been available for purchase for years now. But during Covid, their use was originally banned outright (not even allowed to bring them into the store), and then they were 'allowed' but you had to bag your own groceries if you chose to use them. About a year ago (Covid), I noticed the introduction of a thicker, sturdier plastic bag being stocked at the checkout lane, and offered for use by the checkout person as an alternative to the paper sacks (and by 'thicker', I'm comparing to the ultra-thin 'single-use' guys). When customer-owned re-usables were banned, they didn't charge anything but now, maybe they charge the same standard 10c per bag that they charge for paper sacks. At Safeway in Contra Costa, they were dark green, and plastered with wording about being 're-usable'. I don't have one on hand but they are similar to the white plastic Trader Joe's bag I posted above (lower right). They seem to be pushing these in place of the paper sacks they used to offer (and still seem to have, but hidden behind the checkout operator). Anyway - bottom line seems to be, we've gotten rid of the evil, nasty single-use bags, but now we seem to be seeing a thicker plastic bag that - while labeled 're-usable' - is really just a throw-away bag that you might have paid 5-10 cents for!

I wonder if SF (and San Mateo?) somehow banned these 're-usable' plastics over-and-above any CA rules? I'll be back there in 2 weeks so will check it out!

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Old Jun 12th 2021, 7:55 pm
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Default Re: Climate change.

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
But back to California ... the 'paper' bags are obvious, but the 're-usable' plastic situation is confusing. When I was in the Bay Area in May, you could buy a 'heavy duty' re-usable at the store; these were offered for purchase at/near the checkout, but you have to pick them out yourself, and they cost 'a few dollars' (as I recall). These are heavy duty, have a 'woven' feel, and have cloth-like handles. I believe they are made from recycled plastic (hence the confusion). That's what I'm calling a 'customer owned re-usable' -


These have been available for purchase for years now. But during Covid, their use was originally banned outright (not even allowed to bring them into the store), and then they were 'allowed' but you had to bag your own groceries if you chose to use them. About a year ago (Covid), I noticed the introduction of a thicker, sturdier plastic bag being stocked at the checkout lane, and offered for use by the checkout person as an alternative to the paper sacks (and by 'thicker', I'm comparing to the ultra-thin 'single-use' guys). When customer-owned re-usables were banned, they didn't charge anything but now, maybe they charge the same standard 10c per bag that they charge for paper sacks. At Safeway in Contra Costa, they were dark green, and plastered with wording about being 're-usable'. I don't have one on hand but they are similar to the white plastic Trader Joe's bag I posted above (lower right). They seem to be pushing these in place of the paper sacks they used to offer (and still seem to have, but hidden behind the checkout operator). Anyway - bottom line seems to be, we've gotten rid of the evil, nasty single-use bags, but now we seem to be seeing a thicker plastic bag that - while labeled 're-usable' - is really just a throw-away bag that you might have paid 5-10 cents for!

I wonder if SF (and San Mateo?) somehow banned these 're-usable' plastics over-and-above any CA rules? I'll be back there in 2 weeks so will check it out!
Looks like San Francisco does indeed have a more stringent law:

"1. Offer an acceptable checkout bag to customers. All single-use, conventional plastic checkout and pre-check out bags are prohibited. Acceptable checkout bags include:

BPI-certified compostable plastic bags
Paper bags labeled with 40% post-consumer recycled content
Reusable checkout bags designed for at least 125 uses and washable
"

I doubt those thicker plastic bags (like the TJs back you pictured a few posts ago) could be used 125 times. I also don't see anything in your picture that says they are compostable, as would be required to fulfill the first option above.

https://sfenvironment.org/checkout-bag-ordinance
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