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The Black Lives Matter movement

The Black Lives Matter movement

Old Jun 30th 2020, 1:01 pm
  #136  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
"in America" - is that an excuse or an explanation? In the UK, anyone threatening use of a lethal weapon would be called to account for their actions - the same is true in most other civilized countries. Just because it hapens, doen't mean it's correct.
But in the UK you'd also be in trouble for owning an unreasonably sharp banana.

They could have just avoided trespassing, and a potentially deadly encounter, but no. Common sense isn't so common.



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Old Jun 30th 2020, 1:21 pm
  #137  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
I'm not completely sure that that's what the French had in mind when they gave them this, but I could be wrong I suppose.

We should probably start slut-shaming her, right?

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
It's a gated walled of yard, they aren't just walking down the street.
I haven't looked in that great detail to be quite honest.
If someone was walking across my garden as part of a protest, I'd probably stay inside, or perhaps go outside and talk to some people and ask them nicely to carry on but watch the flowers. I wouldn't ever, ever, consider waving a lethal weapon in their direction.
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 1:36 pm
  #138  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
But in the UK you'd also be in trouble for owning an unreasonably sharp banana.

They could have just avoided trespassing, and a potentially deadly encounter, but no. Common sense isn't so common.
Tripe.... the use of justifiable force is acceptable in the UK as in the USA, but it is true that the casual carrying of weapons is prohibited. It's just the difference between "active" and "passive" defence - active defence seems closer to offence and the threat of lethal force moreso. In most states, a criminal trespass to land is defined by statute and constitutes a misdemeanor, therefore an armed response is as justifiable as threatening someone with a knife for littering. Equally, if the property is open to access, then a claim of trespass can be argued regardless of signage - just as posting a "beware of the dog" sign doesn't absolve the owner from responsibility.

Common sense would seem to say, don't think that threatening a crowd with a gun will calm the situation..... but I think this was more about making a statement than any protection. Excusing the action suggests acceptance of that statement.
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 1:45 pm
  #139  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Tripe.... the use of justifiable force is acceptable in the UK as in the USA, but it is true that the casual carrying of weapons is prohibited. It's just the difference between "active" and "passive" defence - active defence seems closer to offence and the threat of lethal force moreso. In most states, a criminal trespass to land is defined by statute and constitutes a misdemeanor, therefore an armed response is as justifiable as threatening someone with a knife for littering. Equally, if the property is open to access, then a claim of trespass can be argued regardless of signage - just as posting a "beware of the dog" sign doesn't absolve the owner from responsibility.

Common sense would seem to say, don't think that threatening a crowd with a gun will calm the situation..... but I think this was more about making a statement than any protection. Excusing the action suggests acceptance of that statement.
Common sense says don't put yourself at risk of an encounter the owner will be justified shooting you for.

You think, other people think differently and they are just as right as you.

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Old Jun 30th 2020, 2:01 pm
  #140  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

I don't think the resident lunatics will pay any attention to these inconvenient truths but this bloke has raised some really relevant points regarding the way in which the extremist left views black murders and racism.


6m 45s to 8m 46sec:
Homicide is the leading cause of death for young black men aged 15-34....the concerns about race and racism are totally unattached to the degree to which black people are suffering...and yet there is virtually no concern from those on the left because....the way that many "progressives" think about race issues is a perpetrator-side concern which is if the perpetrators of the problem are white then it's worth talking about and if the perpetrators of the problem happen to be black then it's not worth talking about..."
10m 27sec to 12m 6sec:
...It's not like smallpox...we'll never wipe out racism 100%...

Last edited by paulry; Jun 30th 2020 at 2:07 pm.
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 2:05 pm
  #141  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
I agree, crazy people thinking they can walk on someone else's marked, fenced off, private property like they own it, in America, and not expect something bad to happen. Crazy people.
I'm still confused about all this, but you sound clued up on these things so maybe you can help me out. (Please tick the most appropriate answer)

If I have to travel through rural America and know that I might have to ask directions, is it best to put on:
o A suit
o A bulletproof vest
o Full-blown riot gear

If I'm in America in my apartment and a bunch of armed guys in plain clothes burst in, do I:
o Shoot them
o Respectfully ask to see their warrant

If I'm in America in my own mcmansion/starter castle and I see some folks moving down the private road outside, do I shoot them if they are (multiple answers possible):
o Serfs
o Joggers
o Japanese tourists
o Plainclothed cops

If I'm in America and I come home to find my apartment door open, and I go inside and find an intruder, do I shoot him/her?
o Always
o Only if the intruder is male
o Only if the intruder is black
o Only if the intruder is male AND black
o Only on the third Tuesday of every month
o Only after checking that it's actually my own apartment



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Old Jun 30th 2020, 2:08 pm
  #142  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
I'm still confused about all this, but you sound clued up on these things so maybe you can help me out. (Please tick the most appropriate answer)

If I have to travel through rural America and know that I might have to ask directions, is it best to put on:
o A suit
o A bulletproof vest
o Full-blown riot gear

If I'm in America in my apartment and a bunch of armed guys in plain clothes burst in, do I:
o Shoot them
o Respectfully ask to see their warrant

If I'm in America in my own mcmansion/starter castle and I see some folks moving down the private road outside, do I shoot them if they are (multiple answers possible):
o Serfs
o Joggers
o Japanese tourists
o Plainclothed cops

If I'm in America and I come home to find my apartment door open, and I go inside and find an intruder, do I shoot him/her?
o Always
o Only if the intruder is male
o Only if the intruder is black
o Only if the intruder is male AND black
o Only on the third Tuesday of every month
o Only after checking that it's actually my own apartment
You need another option - answers vary by State.
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 2:16 pm
  #143  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
Common sense says don't put yourself at risk of an encounter the owner will be justified shooting you for.

You think, other people think differently and they are just as right as you.
Pray suggest the justification - as posted earlier "In most states, a criminal trespass to land is defined by statute and constitutes a misdemeanor" so actions against trespassers are normally subject to laws of self-defence. If the trespasser has not broken into the property and is not directly threatening either the property or its owner, then the owner has no justification to shoot and can be prosecuted if he does so, as even a proven act of trespass does not deprive the perpetrator of rights. The act of waving firearms at a crowd appears far more about making a statement than any claim to legal rights - and by justifying the action you are supporting that message. I do not suggest that all people think as I do, but then, I'm not the one making false claims.

Last edited by macliam; Jun 30th 2020 at 2:20 pm.
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 2:21 pm
  #144  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Pray suggest the justification - as posted earlier "In most states, a criminal trespass to land is defined by statute and constitutes a misdemeanor" so actions against trespassers are normally subject to laws of self-defence. If the trespasser has not broken into the property and is not directly threatening either the property or its owner, then the owner has no justification to shoot and can be prosecuted if he does so, as even a proven act of trespass does not deprive the perpetrator of rights. The act of waving firearms at a crowd appears far more about making a statement than any claim to legal rights - and by justifying the action you are supporting that message. I do not suggest that all peoiple think as I do, but then, I'm not the one making false claims.
You can just read the tweet thread posted earlier where they refer to the Missouri law.

Eta: I'll make it easy for you: https://www.kmov.com/news/experts-examine-whether-it-was-legal-for-st-louis-couple-to-point-guns-at-protesters/article_ef18bb82-ba77-11ea-8432-2b81e9df592a.html

"making false claims"... lol

Last edited by anotherlimey; Jun 30th 2020 at 2:44 pm.
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 2:25 pm
  #145  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
It's a gated walled of yard, they aren't just walking down the street.
Thats exactly what they were doing, Walking down a street. just a very particular bit of street.
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 2:43 pm
  #146  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
You can just read the tweet thread posted earlier where they refer to the Missouri law.
I'm not interested in tweets - here's the legal advice for Missouri - https://www.uslawshield.com/unwanted-guests-missouri/
I quote "Keep in mind that the force you use against the trespasser must be that which an ordinary and prudent person would consider reasonable. In many situations it simply involves calling the police. There are situations in which drawing or pointing your firearm may be a reasonable use of force, but I advise that you never draw or point your firearm unless you need to use deadly force, which means that there must be an imminent threat of deadly force against you."

Does this look like the owners are threatened? -
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 2:46 pm
  #147  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
I'm not interested in tweets - here's the legal advice for Missouri - https://www.uslawshield.com/unwanted-guests-missouri/
I quote "Keep in mind that the force you use against the trespasser must be that which an ordinary and prudent person would consider reasonable. In many situations it simply involves calling the police. There are situations in which drawing or pointing your firearm may be a reasonable use of force, but I advise that you never draw or point your firearm unless you need to use deadly force, which means that there must be an imminent threat of deadly force against you."

Does this look like the owners are threatened? -
No, you're not interested in anything contrary to your opinion: https://www.kmov.com/news/experts-ex...1e9df592a.html
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 2:59 pm
  #148  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
I'm not sure whether I agree with you, Paulry, that the Black Lives Matter movement is marxist. Quite simply, I think that particular term is quite well defined and I'm not convinced that the definition fits.
It absolutely does fit



Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
But whatever. I have serious issues of my own with the "What We Believe" page. Ultimately, it's an attempt to play the identity politics card in several dimensions on the assumption that all those who has a grievance will unite against the establishment. Whatever one thinks of the different arguments, they are different arguments, and conflating them will be counter-productive.
That's cultural marxism in action


Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
Be that as it may, two points.

One, I don't believe that the millions who are marching under the BLM banner subscribe to this. Just because the manifesto was drawn up by a handful of people who may have been the original organizers and coined the slogan, it doesn't follow that millions of marchers share those views.

You said yourself (on 10 June) that you would take the slogan "Defund the police" at face value. Well, I think most people, marchers and sympathetic observers alike, take the slogan "Black lives matter" at face value, in the context of the undeniable depriving of black people's civil and basic human rights summed up by the video of George Floyd's murder.
A very cleverly put together slogan (Black Lives Matter) for the organisation name + undisputable outrage at the murder of a black man + a stated agenda seasoned with "black lives matter" lip service + funding in the form of donations from both well meaning and sinister forces = an effective Trojan horse organisation

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
Two, who else is standing up for the rights of black people? It's all very well denouncing the Black Lives Matter "movement" (by whatever definition of "movement"), but what/who else is there out there doing anything of significance for black people's basic human rights? What are you doing, apart from sitting on the sidelines and sniping?
Good question but I can tell you now it's not BLM - they havent done one thing to improve the lot of black people and caused a great deal of harm instead with their demands to defund the police - which has caused even more suffering and black deaths than before - which incidently BLM are silent about.

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
You're the classic "I'm not racist, but..." type. No, you're not one of the perpetrators. You're one of the large group for whom the complete sentence is "I'm not racist, but I can't be bothered to do anything constructive, either."

In as much as you do do anything, you're no different to the hardcore BLM advocates in that you're playing the identity politics game to the bitter end.
No. I'm showing that BLM is not the messiah that many seem to think it is and it doesn't represent black lives - or if it is it's failing them miserably, and not uplifting or improving their lives at all.

So what are you doing to help then?

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
Was it any different in the civil rights movement of the 1960s? Martin Luther King was an evangelical pastor; many activists at the time were marxists; there was a substantial body in favour of armed defence of the black community, such as the Black Panthers.

There was a lot of discussion at that time too, but the real impetus came from pairs of black and white (and Jewish) activists willing to board a Greyhound bus headed for the south. No doubt there were heated discussions between the different factions on the bus. But ultimately, what counted was that they got off the bus together at their destination and were beaten to a pulp by white supremacist thugs whilst the police stood by and watched - and TV cameras filmed. An image is worth a thousand words.
Back then it was predominantly blacks fighting very legitinately for their rights. Today its a trojan horse organanisation with mostly white membership and comprising a mixture of people who know very well what it's goals really are, and others who think the organisation is good and virtuous but which the behaviours and "what we believe" page is anything but virtuous.

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
You and people like you are just hoping that this whole business can be talked to death and enough doubt sown. If the radical BLM activists sway the movement, you might get your wish. If not, don't count on it. Both sides are at equal risk of assuming that they will carry their identity base with them, but not everyone is willing to play the game. Too many people have a conscience and a TV set.
Nope. I would like to see traditional family values re-established that encourages mum + dad led families. More jobs. Reductions to grievence + dependency culture. Promotion of personal responsibility and shared identities rather than divided ones. Schemes that are put in place to help people help themselves such as education and business incubation grants. Also a roll back of extremist influences in the mainstream press and institutions - especially educational ones. And a heap of other good things besides.

What things of substance would you like to see?
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 3:03 pm
  #149  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement


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Old Jun 30th 2020, 3:22 pm
  #150  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by generic quote View Post
Back then it was predominantly blacks fighting very legitinately for their rights.
For those on the wrong side of history, for the conservatives, its always "back then" was good to protest, was acceptable to protest, but not now, now is good, now everything is good, lucky to be born in a time of post-protest, the only time in history when protest is not needed. Its always good to ask yourself who would you have been at particular points of history. If you object now,you would have objected then, if you accept now, you would have accepted then.Its what it means to be conservative.That they look back at times when conservatism lost, is a good indicator that they are wrong. conservatives think every fight that they lost, that it was right that they lost, except the present one, they are sure that if they lose this one, this last one, then for sure the sky will fall.
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