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After birth 'abortions'??!!

After birth 'abortions'??!!

Old Feb 29th 2012, 3:42 am
  #121  
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing View Post
Medically, I believe it it's generally considered the earliest point in the pregnancy where the foetus can survive if delivered. Now, I'm not 100% but that is my interpretation. That would suggest that it is a flexible point in the term, for example, if sufficient numbers of babies were delivered premature at 22 weeks, perhaps this would be the new magic number.

The problem only arises when people see abortion as a method of contraception, when it clearly is not. In cases of rape or incest, as mentioned, any abortion would be carried out very early on in the pregnancy. An abortion for medical reasons would be carried out later but in cases like anencephaly - is it really right to force the mother to carry a baby to term only to experience either a stillbirth, or a baby who dies very soon after the birth.

Ultimately, it will probably always remain an unsolved issue. It's not something I'd want my wife to do, for example, unless as an absolute last resort but who am I to suggest that someone else shouldn't at least have that option? Not least because I will never be pregnant so I will never understand what it is like to be in that position.
You get strangely more lucid, as the evening wears on, don't you?
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 3:48 am
  #122  
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer View Post
You get strangely more lucid, as the evening wears on, don't you?
It's the alcohol talking.
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 3:52 am
  #123  
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by moneypenny20 View Post
It's the alcohol talking.
I guarantee he's as sober as the proverbial judge. I, on the other hand. ...
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 4:35 am
  #124  
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer View Post
You get strangely more lucid, as the evening wears on, don't you?
I have my moments.

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer View Post
I guarantee he's as sober as the proverbial judge. I, on the other hand. ...
Not a drop has passed my lips
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 5:35 am
  #125  
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by TheEmperorIsNaked View Post
but I consider these two (if this is kosher) - a pair of bleedin' feckwits!
Perhaps we should force them to drink hemlock?
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 6:03 am
  #126  
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing View Post
Not least because I will never be pregnant so I will never understand what it is like to be in that position.
The argument that men don't get a say since they don't have a uterus is compelling for many men. Unfortunately, the female population is not of unanimity on the issue, and so I'm still left conflicted.
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 7:22 am
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by fatbrit View Post
The argument that men don't get a say since they don't have a uterus is compelling for many men. Unfortunately, the female population is not of unanimity on the issue, and so I'm still left conflicted.
Most people are conflicted, I'd be prepared to bet. Though I err on the side of pro-choice, I'm not always 100% comfortable with that. Even for those who have had the procedure, it is hardly a decision that is taken lightly, by both parties. I'm speaking the obvious there, of course.

I can understand arguments for it, and I can see the point of view of some of those who are against it but it all comes down to interpretation of when, for you 'meaningful' or 'viable' life begins. For many, that is the point of conception, but really if said theoretical foetus could not exist outside of the womb under any circumstance, can it really be considered as such? This, as I said before, is why I think they came up with the 24 week cut-off. Of course, solid arguments could be made to suggest it should be earlier and this is why I believe this debate will go on ad infinitum.

That being said, I still can't say that we should completely remove any option for a woman to consider having an abortion just because we don't like, or are not comfortable with that idea - or indeed ideologically opposed to that idea either, hence my generally pro-choice stance.

Not sure how clear that is, but it's late ...
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 9:05 am
  #128  
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

I don't get the Australian rags that pass for newspapers, but an enforced log off (power cut), had me wander down the street for a coffee and a squizz at the daily.

You'd think that there would be something there, but I could find nothing. Even if this piece is a few days old-I figured that there would be some outraged letters to the Ed-but nothing.

I shall investigate further..
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 1:05 pm
  #129  
 
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing View Post
Most people are conflicted, I'd be prepared to bet. Though I err on the side of pro-choice, I'm not always 100% comfortable with that. Even for those who have had the procedure, it is hardly a decision that is taken lightly, by both parties. I'm speaking the obvious there, of course.

I can understand arguments for it, and I can see the point of view of some of those who are against it but it all comes down to interpretation of when, for you 'meaningful' or 'viable' life begins. For many, that is the point of conception, but really if said theoretical foetus could not exist outside of the womb under any circumstance, can it really be considered as such? This, as I said before, is why I think they came up with the 24 week cut-off. Of course, solid arguments could be made to suggest it should be earlier and this is why I believe this debate will go on ad infinitum.

That being said, I still can't say that we should completely remove any option for a woman to consider having an abortion just because we don't like, or are not comfortable with that idea - or indeed ideologically opposed to that idea either, hence my generally pro-choice stance.

Not sure how clear that is, but it's late ...
I agree. I infact feel that 24 weeks (unless there are medical reasons for it) is a bit late to have a termination. I am pro-choice and for me, in cases, such as rape, medical issues, health, safety etc it gets my 100% support, however, abortion should not be a method of contraception, there are many options available (not all 100% baby proof,I know) termination, need not be one of them.

It is never an easy decision to end a pregnancy, and presumably for most people, alot of thought and councelling has gone in to it. The choice whether or not to allow the pregnancy to advance to full term should never be removed, it would be one hell of a mistake to return to the back street abortion days.

As for that rag the article came from, have you seen the other topics? Putin to have first bash at virgins? as I said before ....Sh1t!

Last edited by dollface; Feb 29th 2012 at 1:08 pm.
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 2:54 pm
  #130  
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing View Post
Most people are conflicted, I'd be prepared to bet. Though I err on the side of pro-choice, I'm not always 100% comfortable with that. Even for those who have had the procedure, it is hardly a decision that is taken lightly, by both parties. I'm speaking the obvious there, of course.

I can understand arguments for it, and I can see the point of view of some of those who are against it but it all comes down to interpretation of when, for you 'meaningful' or 'viable' life begins. For many, that is the point of conception, but really if said theoretical foetus could not exist outside of the womb under any circumstance, can it really be considered as such? This, as I said before, is why I think they came up with the 24 week cut-off. Of course, solid arguments could be made to suggest it should be earlier and this is why I believe this debate will go on ad infinitum.

That being said, I still can't say that we should completely remove any option for a woman to consider having an abortion just because we don't like, or are not comfortable with that idea - or indeed ideologically opposed to that idea either, hence my generally pro-choice stance.

Not sure how clear that is, but it's late ...
Playing devil's advocate here ...

Where do you draw this famous "line"? The child cannot survive outside the womb, having run full term, without the long term constant care of the mother and is not cognisant until around six weeks old. So, when does it become a "person"? Our two cold blooded ethicists tell us it's OK to kill the child until around six weeks after birth.
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 3:22 pm
  #131  
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by fatbrit View Post
Striking P2 is the usual pro-choice argument. However, the gradual nature of growth makes it impossible to define adequately a time when life becomes human.

I presume the authors of the paper followed Singer and attacked P1.
My personal position has always been that life begins at the point of viability outside the womb. If the fetus cannot live outside the womb then, in my mind, it is not "alive" and therefore not what fits into my definition of life.

With advances in modern medicine the viability age is increasingly lower and that does weigh on my thought processes.

These are entirely my own beliefs and opinions.
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 3:42 pm
  #132  
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
My personal position has always been that life begins at the point of viability outside the womb. If the fetus cannot live outside the womb then, in my mind, it is not "alive" and therefore not what fits into my definition of life.

With advances in modern medicine the viability age is increasingly lower and that does weigh on my thought processes.

These are entirely my own beliefs and opinions.
Agreed.

I'm inclined to think that modern medicine can extend the period of fetus survival to a period which is far beyond that of natural survival.
My own feeling on the pro-life vs pro-choice subject, is that a woman should have the option to choose what she does with her own body, without someone else deciding for her.
I'm off topic, though.

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Old Feb 29th 2012, 3:45 pm
  #133  
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer View Post
Playing devil's advocate here ...

Where do you draw this famous "line"? The child cannot survive outside the womb, having run full term, without the long term constant care of the mother and is not cognisant until around six weeks old. So, when does it become a "person"? Our two cold blooded ethicists tell us it's OK to kill the child until around six weeks after birth.
I did leave it rather ambiguous, I suppose.

I was going from the position of the survivability of a premature birth. One born at 24 weeks can survive (albeit with constant care). However, such a baby, at six weeks old - had it still been in the uterus would still only be a 30 week pregnancy, long before the 37 weeks at which a foetus is considered full term. It is the greyest of grey areas, hence the often heated debates on the subject.
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 4:07 pm
  #134  
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
My personal position has always been that life begins at the point of viability outside the womb. If the fetus cannot live outside the womb then, in my mind, it is not "alive" and therefore not what fits into my definition of life.

With advances in modern medicine the viability age is increasingly lower and that does weigh on my thought processes.

These are entirely my own beliefs and opinions.
I see you have those same feelings that you've fudged it a little. So let's turn it on its head and attack the premise that it is wrong to take innocent human life. If we so decline, then it's a simple weighing up of the preferences of the mother against those of the fetus.
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Old Feb 29th 2012, 4:14 pm
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Default Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!

Originally Posted by fatbrit View Post
I see you have those same feelings that you've fudged it a little. So let's turn it on its head and attack the premise that it is wrong to take innocent human life. If we so decline, then it's a simple weighing up of the preferences of the mother against those of the fetus.
That would likely fall into the 'abortion as a method of contraception' category though. Obviously, if a 13 year old girl was raped, allowing her a (likely very early - < 4 weeks) termination to mitigate the psychological damage to her for having to carry the baby to term and then face having to maybe give it up for adoption; or the potential psychological damage (and maybe even potential abuse) to the child who isn't wanted, then it's a bit beyond the preferences of the mother outweighing those of the foetus. Again, such abortions are usually not being carried out at 24 weeks, but much earlier, when it is more an embryo than a foetus.

Now in medical cases - such as an unsurvivable or insurmountable birth defect, the decision to have an abortion of a foetus that would not have any quality of life, or even be 'alive' in any meaningful sense of the word beyond that theoretical six week period that is contained in the linked article, must be one that is allowed to be considered and this is where I have to suspend my own feelings about what I'd want to happen if my baby was concerned and at least support the fact that it should be an option.

Does that make sense ... ?
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