Dick Dasterdly

Something of a contradiction between your first and second paras methinks.

You obviously prefer to see really desperate ppl. for whom the Spanish system has obviously failed badly, than the sometimes overgenerous and wasteful UK system.

cricketman

Why do you think the second para starts with "However"

I meant that ideologically I prefer the Spanish welfare system but in reality I am afraid it will cause huge amounts of suffering in periods of high unemployment (like nowadays)

Apparently there are half a million families in Spain who have had zero income for at least the last 6 months. Either these people are working on the black, they have a lot of savings or very understanding extended families

Dick Dasterdly

I was wondering that myself.
So in effect you are admitting that the UK system is still the best of the two despite its failings.

cricketman

No I dont think the UK system is better, it doesnt seem to actually help people but to make them more dependent on the State.

The economy is very different in the UK. Even nowadays most people could walk into a job within a few days. This was the case in Spain 4 years ago, but now it is not the case.

I actually think in these cases the government should have food and clothes banks and not depend on charities. Accommodation is a trickier issue...

evamar

At this point, the only way many Spanish families survive now is because their retired parents are supporting them with their pensions and allowing them to live in their houses. Before this generation the situation would have been even worse, as people simply did not have pensions. Also, many people are working in black just to be able to feed their families. When this situation comes from bare necessity and they are not getting any help, I cannot really see any moral issue, whatever the law says. Other thing is when people do this in good times without need. I really think that at this time there should be a lot more facilities for self-employment and a period of grace without taxes for new one person companies, so that people can legally help themselves and stop being unemployed, and later when they are stablished also allowing them to create employment far easier and cheaper.

Please, read again my distinction between responsible people who now and then can need help in their lives, just as you or me, and those antisocial irresponsible people who only want to suck off the system by having kids. What do you think my opinion is???

You seem to believe that I was born in a diamond cot. I would like to say that my grandmother was a maid and illiterate till she was in her late 30's and was taught by her kids, that my mum was legally working by the age of 12 (illegally before that), that my mum taught my brother and me to accept our own responsibilities, and that I am extremely proud of both of them for teaching us how important a social conscience, honesty and personal wish to improve one's life are. It comes from the person, not from your actual situation.

cricketman

No I dont think that at all. Actually your background and my wife's background are very similar. She is also shocked at the UK's welfare system

I just want to say that there are no easy solutions and you cant resort to eugenics If it were up to me I would just introduce a maximum benefit of £1000 per month in the UK (I believe the Tories have just done that but capped it at £2000 per month)

A family can live on £1000 per month without going cold or hungry. Maybe not in London, but then I'm afraid some people should just move somewhere cheaper

evamar

Any person with a social conscience should be shocked by your stupid system and its abusers, natives or immigrants.

Maybe that would be the answer. 1K is enough if they stop wasting in stupid superfluous things and learn to cook themselves.

Rosemary

And do not forget that that 1000 pounds is the equivalent to 1500 pounds to someone who is working. ( Or at least I used to have roughly a third of my salary stopped in taxes, NI, pension etc.) That would be 18,000 per year and there is a considerable percentage of workers on that or less. No person should receive more than someone who is working, for doing zilch.

Graham

jackytoo

Why do you keep using the word "your", it's yours too, you have lived there for some years and have a UK partner.

JLFS

The system in Spain is too harsh in my, view and the system in the UK is stupidly generous.

The point you are making about the amount people should receive seems the fairest solution for all concerned, by that I mean for the government, the recipients and the taxpayer.....

Good thinking.....

jackytoo

Yes, agree with both you and Graham. TBH if I were faced with working at B&Q etc. and could probably get more in benefits, no travel to work costs I know which I would choose. The other thing to do for these parents of large families receiving thousands is to get them out sweeping the streets at 8am.

JLFS

Dont you realise that they would would have to be getting the children ready for school and giving them breakfast, or do you think it is right to send kids to school with no brekkie?


I think you are being very unfair with you suggestion,




they should start at 5am, sweep till 8.00 , break for one hour to attent to the kidsthen back out riding the brush again till two.

jackytoo

Do you mean to say that poor children get breakfast far too generous

evamar

I don't think that immigrants can change the British system. You can. I only pay into it.

Rosemary

In a way it is the wrong time to change the system, making up figures now, if there are 100,000 jobs available and 2,000,000 people on the dole then there are going to be genuine financial problems for many families. Any new legislation appears to be a big stick with many holes that allow the non genuine families to take advantage, I must admit without using the courts it is difficult to see how the genuine/non genuine cases can be separated and of course the courts are already under staffed. Maybe considerably increase the civil service and interview claiments once or twice weekly but then there would be a public outcry.
I am glad that I do not have to try and work out what requires to be done, it is so easy to criticise but without any constructive plans to put forward it is rather pointless.
Where are the "experts" when you need them.

Graham