At what price
Feb 17th 2015, 10:50 am
#31
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2013
Location: Costa del Concrete
Posts: 184
Re: At what price
Indeed and I am sure with the clout a Bank has, the agent will be hardly concerned. I don't know if it is the norm but in our neck of the woods, their fee is agreed regardless of the selling price.
Feb 17th 2015, 11:07 am
#32
Banned
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Mallorca
Posts: 19,367
Re: At what price
In all fairness, I suppose it would be much easier (and further relieve us of all personal responsibility for anything) if all things were controlled by some faceless bureaucratic regulation which bears all responsibility for everything, yet has zero liability - say, the sale price of your house, for example.
Although it would ideally provide us with the luxury of deflecting all responsibility for our failures, I would expect widespread dissent against the very bureaucracy that is "protecting us from ourselves" - for all things we didn't get from it, but believe we are entitled to.
Come to think of it, that sounds eerily familiar.
You have proved nothing, other than you have yet another theory of dubious motives which are in all ways inconsistent with reality.
Last edited by amideislas; Feb 17th 2015 at 11:24 am.
Feb 17th 2015, 11:25 am
#33
Banned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: At what price
Well, that's consistent with your view that all things need to be bureaucratically regulated to "protect us from ourselves". Unfortunately, bureaucrats have consistently proven to be even less qualified to decide others' fate than their victims.
In all fairness, I suppose it would be much easier (and further relieve us of all personal responsibility for anything) if all things were controlled by some faceless bureaucratic regulation which bears all responsibility for everything, yet has zero liability - say, the sale price of your house, for example.
Although it would ideally provide us with the luxury of deflecting all responsibility for our failures, I would expect widespread dissent against the very bureaucracy that is "protecting us from ourselves" - for all things we didn't get from it, but are entitled to.
Come to think of it, that sounds eerily familiar.
You have proved nothing, other than you have yet another theory of dubious motives which are in all ways inconsistent with reality.
In all fairness, I suppose it would be much easier (and further relieve us of all personal responsibility for anything) if all things were controlled by some faceless bureaucratic regulation which bears all responsibility for everything, yet has zero liability - say, the sale price of your house, for example.
Although it would ideally provide us with the luxury of deflecting all responsibility for our failures, I would expect widespread dissent against the very bureaucracy that is "protecting us from ourselves" - for all things we didn't get from it, but are entitled to.
Come to think of it, that sounds eerily familiar.
You have proved nothing, other than you have yet another theory of dubious motives which are in all ways inconsistent with reality.
Much of the blame for the Spanish property scandal can be put at the door of the agents who knowingly sold illegal properties and continue to do so.
Who sold to those who could not really afford it based on the incentives they also got for selling finance.
Who sold properties knowing that the developments would never be completed etc etc.
For every dodgy developer there was a team of Agents.
One of the reason we did not buy in Spain is that during our searches we never came across an agent or promoter that we could trust.
We used to say buyer beware but to day we should also add seller beware.
Feb 17th 2015, 11:40 am
#34
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
Re: At what price
You can certainly blame lawyers if you were given the wrong advice
Or you have to blame the buyer if they did not consult professional advice
Feb 17th 2015, 11:47 am
#35
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 323
Re: At what price
It's totally a buyers market. Offer around 20% under the asking price. If they say no- no harm done, there are 100s of 1000s more to chose from and you may well be surprised by just how many are desperate to sell and would jump at such an offer
Feb 17th 2015, 11:52 am
#36
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,148
Re: At what price
What I have proved and can give you more examples is that in an unregulated market the interests of those involved in selling and marketing are above those of the clients they are supposed to represent.
Much of the blame for the Spanish property scandal can be put at the door of the agents who knowingly sold illegal properties and continue to do so.
Who sold to those who could not really afford it based on the incentives they also got for selling finance.
Who sold properties knowing that the developments would never be completed etc etc.
For every dodgy developer there was a team of Agents.
One of the reason we did not buy in Spain is that during our searches we never came across an agent or promoter that we could trust.
We used to say buyer beware but to day we should also add seller beware.
Much of the blame for the Spanish property scandal can be put at the door of the agents who knowingly sold illegal properties and continue to do so.
Who sold to those who could not really afford it based on the incentives they also got for selling finance.
Who sold properties knowing that the developments would never be completed etc etc.
For every dodgy developer there was a team of Agents.
One of the reason we did not buy in Spain is that during our searches we never came across an agent or promoter that we could trust.
We used to say buyer beware but to day we should also add seller beware.
Feb 17th 2015, 11:53 am
#37
Banned
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Mallorca
Posts: 19,367
Re: At what price
Regulation would protect sellers from their own stupidity? For example, selling a property for 50% less than its worth? Simply because someone "told them" to sell it for that? (as if that really happens).
So, you argue that rather than selling your property at a fair price that both the seller and the buyer agree to...
...and to prevent an "unfair" practice (that doesn't actually exist)...
... that it would be "fairer" if the law "tells you" what price you can sell your property for, even if it's not agreeable to buyers or is less than its actual value?
- ironically, precisely the same thing you are falsely characterising as the role of estate agents?
And you are involved in estate sales? Please, let everyone know what the name of your firm is.
So, you argue that rather than selling your property at a fair price that both the seller and the buyer agree to...
...and to prevent an "unfair" practice (that doesn't actually exist)...
... that it would be "fairer" if the law "tells you" what price you can sell your property for, even if it's not agreeable to buyers or is less than its actual value?
- ironically, precisely the same thing you are falsely characterising as the role of estate agents?
And you are involved in estate sales? Please, let everyone know what the name of your firm is.
Last edited by amideislas; Feb 17th 2015 at 12:07 pm.
Feb 17th 2015, 12:23 pm
#38
Banned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: At what price
I have been involved in sales in the Algarve on a part time basis.
My role was to find and lis properties around where we have our home.
The laws in Portugal are different in that it is illegal for a licensed agent to sell a property without all the relevant paperwork in place.There is a move to have in every agency at least one nationally acredited individual who has taken the required exams ( in Portuguese ).
No sale can now go ahead without all the relevant paperwork .
Do you need regulation to protect people from their own stupidity of course you do.
The definition of selling is getting the person you are selling to is to make a decision in YOUR favour.
We all know that in the world of finance increasing regulation is a result of levels of misselling and bad advice.
How is selling a property any different to selling financial advice when it comes to protecting those involved.
If we do not have a regulated society we could and some would drive up which ever side of the road suited them.
It is human nature when the opportunity is there to take advantage of each other.
In a property market which relies on commission based incomes then the sale, the income of the agents will all too often come before the interests of the seller.
Bank repos are the classic example of this as other have just posted.
I have lost count of the number of posts from persons asking for recommendations for agents to sell their property who get the response 95% of the time from those who have " bought " a property .
Where were the recommendations for those who did a good job for the seller.
As for those who posted about the importance of getting a good lawyer it is obvious to those of us who know have things work.
But for large numbers who accepted l everything and anything the agent has told them the "reliable lawyer we know " was used without question.
While not 100% responsible it should come as no surprise that some of the largest unfinished developments in the Algarve are Spanish owned who used as their selling companies names that will be all too familiar to many in Spain, MRI and Paramount.
Where are they now ? , Counting their gains somewhere out of reach of the authorities.
My role was to find and lis properties around where we have our home.
The laws in Portugal are different in that it is illegal for a licensed agent to sell a property without all the relevant paperwork in place.There is a move to have in every agency at least one nationally acredited individual who has taken the required exams ( in Portuguese ).
No sale can now go ahead without all the relevant paperwork .
Do you need regulation to protect people from their own stupidity of course you do.
The definition of selling is getting the person you are selling to is to make a decision in YOUR favour.
We all know that in the world of finance increasing regulation is a result of levels of misselling and bad advice.
How is selling a property any different to selling financial advice when it comes to protecting those involved.
If we do not have a regulated society we could and some would drive up which ever side of the road suited them.
It is human nature when the opportunity is there to take advantage of each other.
In a property market which relies on commission based incomes then the sale, the income of the agents will all too often come before the interests of the seller.
Bank repos are the classic example of this as other have just posted.
I have lost count of the number of posts from persons asking for recommendations for agents to sell their property who get the response 95% of the time from those who have " bought " a property .
Where were the recommendations for those who did a good job for the seller.
As for those who posted about the importance of getting a good lawyer it is obvious to those of us who know have things work.
But for large numbers who accepted l everything and anything the agent has told them the "reliable lawyer we know " was used without question.
While not 100% responsible it should come as no surprise that some of the largest unfinished developments in the Algarve are Spanish owned who used as their selling companies names that will be all too familiar to many in Spain, MRI and Paramount.
Where are they now ? , Counting their gains somewhere out of reach of the authorities.
Last edited by EMR; Feb 17th 2015 at 12:28 pm.
Feb 17th 2015, 12:26 pm
#39
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 977
Re: At what price
I sense this is only an agent being rational about the valuation of a property, in the absence of any rationality.
A lot of properties are "valued by committee" of family owners who inherited it and have an inflated sense of value, with zero understanding of actual market value. Some add sentimental value to the price (e.g., "my grandfather built this house!").
It can also be that family members who own the property can't agree on a selling price, so they list it for the highest price that all family members can agree on.
In other cases, it's to avoid appearing "desperate" to their peers. After all, Gonzales' down the road sold their grandmother's house listed for €500K (but in truth they ultimately settled for an offer of €220K, and they simply neglected to mention that part).
And there's always a few "know it alls" that are certain that they are the only ones on the planet who know the value of their property. Everybody else is an idiot.
A good agent should and will advise the seller that it's a completely unrealistic valuation. But that advice often lands on deaf ears, and the property sits empty with zero viewings - for years in many cases. The agents, therefore, have no interest in showing the property, because they know it won't ever sell (complete waste of their time).
Some time ago, some acquaintances of ours listed a house up for about double it's actual "sellable" value. It sat on the market for about a year, and out of curiosity, eventually I sent an email to the agent expressing interest, mentioning that the price seemed unusually high. The agent simply responded with another similar property, more rationally priced.
Whose fault is that?
I don't believe the 'guiri' price is always a conscious, deliberate effort. I sense it's more an inflated value for the sake of inflated value (as illustrated above). It just so happens that naive foreigners fall for it most.
What Rosemary said is equally true - Many Spanish people just have a price, and that's their price - even if it means they'll never sell it.
A lot of properties are "valued by committee" of family owners who inherited it and have an inflated sense of value, with zero understanding of actual market value. Some add sentimental value to the price (e.g., "my grandfather built this house!").
It can also be that family members who own the property can't agree on a selling price, so they list it for the highest price that all family members can agree on.
In other cases, it's to avoid appearing "desperate" to their peers. After all, Gonzales' down the road sold their grandmother's house listed for €500K (but in truth they ultimately settled for an offer of €220K, and they simply neglected to mention that part).
And there's always a few "know it alls" that are certain that they are the only ones on the planet who know the value of their property. Everybody else is an idiot.
A good agent should and will advise the seller that it's a completely unrealistic valuation. But that advice often lands on deaf ears, and the property sits empty with zero viewings - for years in many cases. The agents, therefore, have no interest in showing the property, because they know it won't ever sell (complete waste of their time).
Some time ago, some acquaintances of ours listed a house up for about double it's actual "sellable" value. It sat on the market for about a year, and out of curiosity, eventually I sent an email to the agent expressing interest, mentioning that the price seemed unusually high. The agent simply responded with another similar property, more rationally priced.
Whose fault is that?
I don't believe the 'guiri' price is always a conscious, deliberate effort. I sense it's more an inflated value for the sake of inflated value (as illustrated above). It just so happens that naive foreigners fall for it most.
What Rosemary said is equally true - Many Spanish people just have a price, and that's their price - even if it means they'll never sell it.
Thus you could have four brothers each with a differing view price-wise of the family home. Hence lots of uninhabited houses languishing in the countryside.
Another example the small plots of vineyards in Burgundy. Some only one acre. They tend to be split up.
Feb 17th 2015, 12:28 pm
#40
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,148
Re: At what price
I have been involved in sales in the Algarve on a part time basis.
My role was to find and lis properties around where we have our home.
The laws in Portugal are different in that it is illegal for a licensed agent to sell a property without all the relevant paperwork in place.There is a move to have in every agency at least one nationally acredited individual who has taken the required exams ( in Portuguese ).
No sale can now go ahead without all the relevant paperwork .
Do you need regulation to protect people from their own stupidity of course you do.
The definition of selling is getting the person you are selling to ,to make a decision in YOUR favour.
If we do not have a regulated society we could and some would drive up which ever side of the road suited them.
It is human nature when the opportunity is there to take advantage of each other.
In a property market which relies on commission based incomes then the sale, the income of the agents will all too often come before the interests of the seller.
Bank repos are the classic example of this as other have just posted.
I have lost count of the number of posts from persons asking for recommendations for agents to sell their property who get the response 95% of the time from those who have " bought " a property .
Where were the recommendations for those who did a good job for the seller.
As for those who posted about the importance of getting a good lawyer it is obvious to those of us who know have things work.
But for large numbers who accepted l everything and anything the agent has told them the "reliable lawyer we know " was used without question.
While not 100% responsible it should come as no surprise that some of the largest unfinished developments in the Algarve are Spanish owned who used as their selling companies names that will be all too familiar to many in Spain, MRI and Paramount.
Where are they now ? , Counting their gains somewhere out of reach of the authorities.
My role was to find and lis properties around where we have our home.
The laws in Portugal are different in that it is illegal for a licensed agent to sell a property without all the relevant paperwork in place.There is a move to have in every agency at least one nationally acredited individual who has taken the required exams ( in Portuguese ).
No sale can now go ahead without all the relevant paperwork .
Do you need regulation to protect people from their own stupidity of course you do.
The definition of selling is getting the person you are selling to ,to make a decision in YOUR favour.
If we do not have a regulated society we could and some would drive up which ever side of the road suited them.
It is human nature when the opportunity is there to take advantage of each other.
In a property market which relies on commission based incomes then the sale, the income of the agents will all too often come before the interests of the seller.
Bank repos are the classic example of this as other have just posted.
I have lost count of the number of posts from persons asking for recommendations for agents to sell their property who get the response 95% of the time from those who have " bought " a property .
Where were the recommendations for those who did a good job for the seller.
As for those who posted about the importance of getting a good lawyer it is obvious to those of us who know have things work.
But for large numbers who accepted l everything and anything the agent has told them the "reliable lawyer we know " was used without question.
While not 100% responsible it should come as no surprise that some of the largest unfinished developments in the Algarve are Spanish owned who used as their selling companies names that will be all too familiar to many in Spain, MRI and Paramount.
Where are they now ? , Counting their gains somewhere out of reach of the authorities.
I’m Peter Esders – an English lawyer who has been dealing with Spanish law for 16 years and who works at an English Solicitors firm – also specialising in Spanish law.
It might surprise you to know that the most common question I get asked when I speak to the public is
Do I need a lawyer when buying a property abroad?
Asking this question of a lawyer always surprises me. However, my answer is equally surprising – no you don’t. There is no legal requirement to use a lawyer when buying in either Spain – or in the UK, for that matter.
Statistics show that in the UK 97% of people would use a lawyer when buying a property, yet for some reason the same logic seems to go out of the window when people go abroad.
No, you don’t need a lawyer, but how on earth people think that they can buy a property in a foreign country where they probably don’t know the legal system or even the language is beyond me.
Feb 17th 2015, 12:37 pm
#41
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 977
Re: At what price
I too am in the law and simply put and this after some 44 years in the job both in UK and France I would not venture forth without the protection of a lawyer.
Of course in the UK one has registered land and the whole system is different to that both in France and Spain.
Indeed one of the first things that a budding lawyer is told in the UK is never act for yourself thus on houses colleagues have conveyed the various properties on my behalf.
In France there is a monopoly and you have to use a Notaire and who absolutely insists that one calls him or her Maitre.
You will not buy a house without a Notaire. The French Government recently tried to do away with the Monopoly there were strikes.
Of course in the UK one has registered land and the whole system is different to that both in France and Spain.
Indeed one of the first things that a budding lawyer is told in the UK is never act for yourself thus on houses colleagues have conveyed the various properties on my behalf.
In France there is a monopoly and you have to use a Notaire and who absolutely insists that one calls him or her Maitre.
You will not buy a house without a Notaire. The French Government recently tried to do away with the Monopoly there were strikes.
Feb 17th 2015, 12:43 pm
#42
Banned
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Mallorca
Posts: 19,367
Re: At what price
I have been involved in sales in the Algarve on a part time basis.
My role was to find and lis properties around where we have our home.
The laws in Portugal are different in that it is illegal for a licensed agent to sell a property without all the relevant paperwork in place.There is a move to have in every agency at least one nationally acredited individual who has taken the required exams ( in Portuguese ).
No sale can now go ahead without all the relevant paperwork .
Do you need regulation to protect people from their own stupidity of course you do.
The definition of selling is getting the person you are selling to ,to make a decision in YOUR favour.
If we do not have a regulated society we could and some would drive up which ever side of the road suited them.
It is human nature when the opportunity is there to take advantage of each other.
In a property market which relies on commission based incomes then the sale, the income of the agents will all too often come before the interests of the seller.
Bank repos are the classic example of this as other have just posted.
I have lost count of the number of posts from persons asking for recommendations for agents to sell their property who get the response 95% of the time from those who have " bought " a property .
Where were the recommendations for those who did a good job for the seller.
As for those who posted about the importance of getting a good lawyer it is obvious to those of us who know have things work.
But for large numbers who accepted l everything and anything the agent has told them the "reliable lawyer we know " was used without question.
While not 100% responsible it should come as no surprise that some of the largest unfinished developments in the Algarve are Spanish owned who used as their selling companies names that will be all too familiar to many in Spain, MRI and Paramount.
Where are they now ? , Counting their gains somewhere out of reach of the authorities.
My role was to find and lis properties around where we have our home.
The laws in Portugal are different in that it is illegal for a licensed agent to sell a property without all the relevant paperwork in place.There is a move to have in every agency at least one nationally acredited individual who has taken the required exams ( in Portuguese ).
No sale can now go ahead without all the relevant paperwork .
Do you need regulation to protect people from their own stupidity of course you do.
The definition of selling is getting the person you are selling to ,to make a decision in YOUR favour.
If we do not have a regulated society we could and some would drive up which ever side of the road suited them.
It is human nature when the opportunity is there to take advantage of each other.
In a property market which relies on commission based incomes then the sale, the income of the agents will all too often come before the interests of the seller.
Bank repos are the classic example of this as other have just posted.
I have lost count of the number of posts from persons asking for recommendations for agents to sell their property who get the response 95% of the time from those who have " bought " a property .
Where were the recommendations for those who did a good job for the seller.
As for those who posted about the importance of getting a good lawyer it is obvious to those of us who know have things work.
But for large numbers who accepted l everything and anything the agent has told them the "reliable lawyer we know " was used without question.
While not 100% responsible it should come as no surprise that some of the largest unfinished developments in the Algarve are Spanish owned who used as their selling companies names that will be all too familiar to many in Spain, MRI and Paramount.
Where are they now ? , Counting their gains somewhere out of reach of the authorities.
It's probably worth again reminding that Europe does have the world's largest shadow economy. You can argue that's due to lack of regulation, but I argue it's over-regulation that both facilitates it, and motivates it. And there's no lack of evidence to show that Europe is just about the most regulated in the world, so I have a very difficult time believing that more will magically solve that. Especially considering that those who impose far less petty regulation suffer far less than we do.
Anyway, the day that the government takes control of my entire life, is the day I either leave town, or call it quits for good. And frankly, I'm not convinced we're all that far away.
You could actually get all you want, EMR, and I find that pretty troubling.
Feb 17th 2015, 12:47 pm
#43
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
Re: At what price
You cannot complete a sale without a notaria
It is the notaria's job to ensure that all correct documents are in place, but it is not that job to decide whether the property is completely 100% legal according to national and regional laws
The property legality issue in Spain is not black and white as a lot of the time the properties were legal according to local law, but illegal according to national law. The issue being that the local mayors were wrongly (and corruptly) granting legality to non-urbanisable land (by national law) in exchange for big brown envelopes from developers
Feb 17th 2015, 12:52 pm
#44
Banned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: At what price
I'd argue that just about everything you mention is the result of ill-thought-through regulation. It's one of Europe's fundamental problems. It regulates without consideration for the consequences. And there's no lack of evidence to illustrate how our increasing regulation provides safe havens for those that do indeed have self-serving intent. I can post compelling evidence of this forever. But you always ignore it, so I can't be arsed.
It's probably worth again reminding that Europe does have the world's largest shadow economy. You can argue that's due to lack of regulation, but I argue it's over-regulation that both facilitates it, and motivates it. And there's no lack of evidence to show that Europe is just about the most regulated in the world, so I have a very difficult time believing that more will magically solve that. Especially considering that those who impose far less petty regulation suffer far less than we do.
Anyway, the day that the government takes control of my entire life, is the day I either leave town, or call it quits for good. And frankly, I'm not convinced we're all that far away.
You could actually get all you want, EMR, and I find that pretty troubling.
It's probably worth again reminding that Europe does have the world's largest shadow economy. You can argue that's due to lack of regulation, but I argue it's over-regulation that both facilitates it, and motivates it. And there's no lack of evidence to show that Europe is just about the most regulated in the world, so I have a very difficult time believing that more will magically solve that. Especially considering that those who impose far less petty regulation suffer far less than we do.
Anyway, the day that the government takes control of my entire life, is the day I either leave town, or call it quits for good. And frankly, I'm not convinced we're all that far away.
You could actually get all you want, EMR, and I find that pretty troubling.
In the UK NO commission or high commission based market be it double glazing or financial advice has escaped regulation because of the " human factor " that put the demands of the salesperson/company above that of the customer.
You are obviously a very intelligent, informed individual but you are in a minority.
Regulation particularly in commission driven markets is there to protect the less well informed who are the vast majority of us.
I assume that is Spain the vested interests of the large property companies and developers is the reason why the selling end of the process is open to such abuse.
Feb 17th 2015, 1:38 pm
#45
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 487
Re: At what price
'It is the notaria's job to ensure that all correct documents are in place'
I would argue that the primary function of a Notary is to ensure that any appropriate taxes are paid to the Government. Thereafter they have to ensure that both parties to an agreement understand the terms of the contract and that the terms of the contract do not contravene any laws. They don't have to ensure documentation is correct provided it is not illegal.
I would argue that the primary function of a Notary is to ensure that any appropriate taxes are paid to the Government. Thereafter they have to ensure that both parties to an agreement understand the terms of the contract and that the terms of the contract do not contravene any laws. They don't have to ensure documentation is correct provided it is not illegal.