At what price
 

how much under asking price to offer in spain

Re: At what price
 

Do you have a piece of string?

Re: At what price
 

Normally Spanish people will not accept any offers because they have made up their minds what the house is worth and they will not shift. However, times have changed with the crisis so there is no knowing what would work nowadays. So if you find a house that you like try it and see what happens but be prepared to either walk away or give a further offer.

Rosemary

Re: At what price
 

Just work out the price per M2 and compare that with similar properties at the same location to establish whether it is a good price.

Re: At what price
 

Sorry for hijacking the thread
Is having the money ready, without needing to apply for mortgage, a valid reason for asking for 5-10% price reduction? Or people just don't care?

Re: At what price
 

Not likely to matter. The money ends up in the sellers hands either way.

However, instant cash has a certain appeal. Especially if a good chunk of it can be cash.

Re: At what price
 

When you watch A place in the sun, they seem to think that 30-40% under asking price is acceptable.
As someone selling my house, I would tell them in no uncertain terms, to take their insulting offer, and put it somewhere to grow a bit!

Re: At what price
 

No doubt about it IMO cash always rules.

Re: At what price
 

A friend had a call fom an agent at the start of the year with an " offer " of E125.000 for their apartment , they told the agent in no uncertain terns that it was not even worth considering.
The agents response was " well it is up to you but if you do not want to sell your apartment etc etc.
A few weeks ago they accepted an offer through another agent of E152,000.
Too many agents seem to have forgotten who they are working for!!
You have to ask who is encouraging low offers ??

Re: At what price
 

We had our apartment on at 149,000 with our bottom line 130,000.
Eventually we had a bottom line offer from some Dutch people. They then asked about the possibility of a garage. We told them a garage to buy would be circa 12,000 in Frigiliana. They then reduced their offer by 12,000.
We told them to go away and reproduce, not buying them a garage.

Re: At what price
 

Depends if you have been quoted the 'guiri' price or the Spanish price.
if the former then the actual value will be much less;)

Re: At what price
 

I sense this is only an agent being rational about the valuation of a property, in the absence of any rationality.

A lot of properties are "valued by committee" of family owners who inherited it and have an inflated sense of value, with zero understanding of actual market value. Some add sentimental value to the price (e.g., "my grandfather built this house!").

It can also be that family members who own the property can't agree on a selling price, so they list it for the highest price that all family members can agree on.

In other cases, it's to avoid appearing "desperate" to their peers. After all, Gonzales' down the road sold their grandmother's house listed for €500K (but in truth they ultimately settled for an offer of €220K, and they simply neglected to mention that part).

And there's always a few "know it alls" that are certain that they are the only ones on the planet who know the value of their property. Everybody else is an idiot.

A good agent should and will advise the seller that it's a completely unrealistic valuation. But that advice often lands on deaf ears, and the property sits empty with zero viewings - for years in many cases. The agents, therefore, have no interest in showing the property, because they know it won't ever sell (complete waste of their time).

Some time ago, some acquaintances of ours listed a house up for about double it's actual "sellable" value. It sat on the market for about a year, and out of curiosity, eventually I sent an email to the agent expressing interest, mentioning that the price seemed unusually high. The agent simply responded with another similar property, more rationally priced.

Whose fault is that?

I don't believe the 'guiri' price is always a conscious, deliberate effort. I sense it's more an inflated value for the sake of inflated value (as illustrated above). It just so happens that naive foreigners fall for it most.

What Rosemary said is equally true - Many Spanish people just have a price, and that's their price - even if it means they'll never sell it.

Re: At what price
 

Yes and it is worth mentioning that Spanish people most often have no real need to sell

In the UK there is a housing ladder so people might need to sell because they are expecting a new baby or they have been offered a job somewhere else

This is rarely the case in Spain. People tend to buy a property and just keep it until they might die or they "could do with releasing the money" without actually needing it

So people would rather wait and wait and wait than sell for an "insulting" price at what they perceive to be the bottom of the market

Re: At what price
 

The example I gave was on a fairly large and popular development and any agent worth the name would/should know the " going " rate.
In this case another apartment not as old or as large sold earlier for E145,000.
I do not blame anyone for making what appears to be a silly offer but rather the " take it or leave " atitude of agents. Who appear to be encouraging low offers because as we know NO SALE., NO COMMISSION.
The structure of the property market does not encourage agents to seek the best price for their customer.

Re: At what price
 

That's the problem when there is so much excess stock

It isnt really the fault of the estate agent. 80% of them have gone bust since 2008 so actually those that survived must be doing something right

Re: At what price
 

No surprise... I suppose if you were an agent, selling a property would be the last thing you'd want to do. And that would somehow make you a "better" agent.

Ideally, I suppose a "salesperson" should never have to sell anything. Unfortunately, there's this little issue of being able to afford a roof over your head and food to eat. Always gets in the way, doesn't it? Surely another good example of capitalism run amuck.

Re: At what price
 

Offer what you think is right and what you can afford.

Re: At what price
 

In LAW the agent repesents the seller and if nothing else is morally oblidged to do the best for their client.
But I agree with you the structure of the property market does mean that the needs of the salesperson over ride the needs /wishes of the seller.

By the way I do have a peripheral involvement in property sales and when listing a property try to find out what the client " really " needs rather than what they want.

Re: At what price
 

This is simply not true

The estate agent profession is lightly regulated in the UK but there is no regulation at all in Spain. They are simply facilitators to help reach a sale, but they work for themselves first and foremost

There is no law to make the estate agent do anything. The only thing they must do by law in the UK is communicate all offers

Re: At what price
 

That explains it all !
There is a difference though is passing on an offer to suggesting to the seller that they would be an idiot not to accept it unfortunately for the agent the seller was better informed than he was.
In the case I am referring to agent NO 1 would have cost the seller E27,000.

Re: At what price
 

That's actually what agents do. Otherwise, they wouldn't have clients. What is best for the seller is in the eyes of the seller alone. The decision to accept any offer is the seller's alone. I'd never give that final decision to anyone. I don't think many others would either.

Nice flowery sentiment (e.g., salespeople should ideally have no motivation to sell), but somehow, if I were selling a property, I don't believe I'd feel all that comfortable with a wholly unmotivated agent that has nothing to gain from selling my property.

But the notion is consistent with your usual presumption that all things are borne of self-serving intent. I can only presume such conclusions are based on what you would do.

Fair enough, although rather contrasting to your original statement - suggesting that agents act solely in self-interest by offering "what the client "really" needs rather than what they want."

Re: At what price
 

If you establish what the client needs this gives you a theoretical bottom line NOT a selling price.
The aim of the salesperson should be to maximise their earnings by getting the best price for the client NOT the buyer.
As a sales manager I had no time for salespersons who sold on margin and did not maximise earnings. Apat from earning less they did not last as long,
A good sales person will have sellers approaching them because of their reputation as not just getting sales but also getting better prices.

I know agents who for want of a better word " bottom trawl " looking for properties at the bottom of the market , that have been for sale for some time.
They identify the seller who will take almost any offer. They are looking for the easy sale but to survive as a business they need a higher rate of sales.
These companies and individuals come and go.
Others who charge higher rates , invest in marketing and need to achieve higher prices to cover their overheads.
These tend to be the companies who survive.

Re: At what price
 

You can only do that in times of plentiful demand

When there is a shortful of buyers then you need to maximise the number of transactions

It is simple economics

The role of an estate agent is to make enough money for themselves. Ones that provide a good service to buyers and sellers alike will come strongly recommended, but there is no moral obligation to do anything except to perhaps be honest

Re: At what price
 

You are not being " honest " if you put your requirements above that of your clients.
But then none of can be surprised at what happens when you look at the type of person selling for many agents.
It must be hard for those trying to do a good job.

Re: At what price
 

In your example I do not see any dishonesty

The agent cannot predict the future. In times of scarce demand then any offer is worth considering. It is up to the seller to go for it or wait as long as it takes for a higher offer

Re: At what price
 

What is dishonest about listing a property, showing it and highlighting every feature and benefit, taking an offer and giving it to the seller? It's the seller's choice, not the agent's.

This is what estate agents do. They have every motivation to sell at the highest price they can get. Unless of course, it's priced out of the market and will never sell.

Presumably, selling at a fair market price is more in the best interests of the seller than not selling at all. It's still up to the seller either way. Nobody holds a gun to their head.

So what exactly, is so dubious? What the hell are you talking about?

Re: At what price
 

Nothing if the agent is honest in acting for the seller but in a totally unregulated market that can not be the norme.
Human nature is particularly in sales is to take the easy route and not to try and get the best price. The sale comes first.
If there are no sanctions on the salesperson either legally or applied by their employer then the interests of the seller will always for some be way behind those of the salesperson.
It is true however that many sellers particularly those with holiday homes and absent for most of the year will have little if any knowledge of the market and are " guided " by the agent.
In a parallel thread the question was asked about a register of prices for properties sold.
If this existed the sellers would be able to determine if the offer from the agent was realistic or not.

Re: At what price
 

We were assured by the bank that we would receive any surplus they recovered on our house when it was repossessed but that will be some feat seeing as they have it with an agent at 20k less than the deficit in the mortgage. I have no doubt that their agreement not to chase us for the deficit is worth about as much as any other professional Spaniard's word.

I suppose a property is only worth what it sells for. The rest is sheer guesswork and if that appears cliche it is because there are few other certainties in these 'interesting times'.

Re: At what price
 

The bank is interested in removing that toxic debt from their books as quickly as possible. They have no motivation to generate any "surplus". The agent has little to do with it, other than their "client" telling them to move it as quickly as possible.

By the way, it wasn't that long ago that there was no obligation of Spanish banks to recover any of the debt. Had you been in that position say, 10 years ago, they may well have foreclosed, sold the house, and you'd still be on the hook for the entire debt.

Re: At what price
 

Or the property is worth the lowest price that the salesperson can get the seller to accept.
The examples I have given prove this.

Re: At what price
 

Indeed and I am sure with the clout a Bank has, the agent will be hardly concerned. I don't know if it is the norm but in our neck of the woods, their fee is agreed regardless of the selling price.

Re: At what price
 

Well, that's consistent with your view that all things need to be bureaucratically regulated to "protect us from ourselves". Unfortunately, bureaucrats have consistently proven to be even less qualified to decide others' fate than their victims.

In all fairness, I suppose it would be much easier (and further relieve us of all personal responsibility for anything) if all things were controlled by some faceless bureaucratic regulation which bears all responsibility for everything, yet has zero liability - say, the sale price of your house, for example.

Although it would ideally provide us with the luxury of deflecting all responsibility for our failures, I would expect widespread dissent against the very bureaucracy that is "protecting us from ourselves" - for all things we didn't get from it, but believe we are entitled to.

Come to think of it, that sounds eerily familiar.

You have proved nothing, other than you have yet another theory of dubious motives which are in all ways inconsistent with reality.

Re: At what price
 

What I have proved and can give you more examples is that in an unregulated market the interests of those involved in selling and marketing are above those of the clients they are supposed to represent.
Much of the blame for the Spanish property scandal can be put at the door of the agents who knowingly sold illegal properties and continue to do so.
Who sold to those who could not really afford it based on the incentives they also got for selling finance.
Who sold properties knowing that the developments would never be completed etc etc.
For every dodgy developer there was a team of Agents.

One of the reason we did not buy in Spain is that during our searches we never came across an agent or promoter that we could trust.

We used to say buyer beware but to day we should also add seller beware.

Re: At what price
 

Estate agents are not professionals they are just a sales channel. They are no more qualified than a supermarket cashier

You can certainly blame lawyers if you were given the wrong advice

Or you have to blame the buyer if they did not consult professional advice

Re: At what price
 

It's totally a buyers market. Offer around 20% under the asking price. If they say no- no harm done, there are 100s of 1000s more to chose from and you may well be surprised by just how many are desperate to sell and would jump at such an offer

Re: At what price
 

That's why you should always use a lawyer. You also don't have to buy from developers or agents. We bought from Spanish private seller, got architect to check site and used a good lawyer we know and trust. I was happy to pay €2000 more and we knew what we were getting for our money.

Re: At what price
 

Regulation would protect sellers from their own stupidity? For example, selling a property for 50% less than its worth? Simply because someone "told them" to sell it for that? (as if that really happens).

So, you argue that rather than selling your property at a fair price that both the seller and the buyer agree to...

...and to prevent an "unfair" practice (that doesn't actually exist)...

... that it would be "fairer" if the law "tells you" what price you can sell your property for, even if it's not agreeable to buyers or is less than its actual value?

- ironically, precisely the same thing you are falsely characterising as the role of estate agents?

And you are involved in estate sales? Please, let everyone know what the name of your firm is.

Re: At what price
 

I have been involved in sales in the Algarve on a part time basis.
My role was to find and lis properties around where we have our home.
The laws in Portugal are different in that it is illegal for a licensed agent to sell a property without all the relevant paperwork in place.There is a move to have in every agency at least one nationally acredited individual who has taken the required exams ( in Portuguese ).
No sale can now go ahead without all the relevant paperwork .

Do you need regulation to protect people from their own stupidity of course you do.

The definition of selling is getting the person you are selling to is to make a decision in YOUR favour.
We all know that in the world of finance increasing regulation is a result of levels of misselling and bad advice.
How is selling a property any different to selling financial advice when it comes to protecting those involved.

If we do not have a regulated society we could and some would drive up which ever side of the road suited them.
It is human nature when the opportunity is there to take advantage of each other.
In a property market which relies on commission based incomes then the sale, the income of the agents will all too often come before the interests of the seller.
Bank repos are the classic example of this as other have just posted.
I have lost count of the number of posts from persons asking for recommendations for agents to sell their property who get the response 95% of the time from those who have " bought " a property .
Where were the recommendations for those who did a good job for the seller.

As for those who posted about the importance of getting a good lawyer it is obvious to those of us who know have things work.
But for large numbers who accepted l everything and anything the agent has told them the "reliable lawyer we know " was used without question.
While not 100% responsible it should come as no surprise that some of the largest unfinished developments in the Algarve are Spanish owned who used as their selling companies names that will be all too familiar to many in Spain, MRI and Paramount.

Where are they now ? , Counting their gains somewhere out of reach of the authorities.

Re: At what price
 

I am with you on this and can only quote from France. The problem is the inheritance law where one cannot disinherit one's children. Thanks Napoleon.

Thus you could have four brothers each with a differing view price-wise of the family home. Hence lots of uninhabited houses languishing in the countryside.

Another example the small plots of vineyards in Burgundy. Some only one acre. They tend to be split up.

Re: At what price
 

I posted this before, but I'll do it again.
I’m Peter Esders – an English lawyer who has been dealing with Spanish law for 16 years and who works at an English Solicitors firm – also specialising in Spanish law.

It might surprise you to know that the most common question I get asked when I speak to the public is


Do I need a lawyer when buying a property abroad?

Asking this question of a lawyer always surprises me. However, my answer is equally surprising – no you don’t. There is no legal requirement to use a lawyer when buying in either Spain – or in the UK, for that matter.

Statistics show that in the UK 97% of people would use a lawyer when buying a property, yet for some reason the same logic seems to go out of the window when people go abroad.

No, you don’t need a lawyer, but how on earth people think that they can buy a property in a foreign country where they probably don’t know the legal system or even the language is beyond me.