Violence in Spain
 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...s-protest.html

Anyone think that things could turn a bit nasty in the forseeable future ?

One report suggests that another four and a half million will lose their jobs in the next four years.

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Frighteningly reminicent of the miner's strikes in 70's

This is well worth a look http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ck_to_the_70s/

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The problem is, most of the unemployed in Spain, are in fact employed, it's the way it is and how it has always been, claim benefits and work, the Autonomo is too expensive for everyone, so don't trust the figures.;)

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Even the official figures showed a 100,000 drop in the unemployed figure for June (a record for that month).
Believe it or not, they are claiming full employment now in the IT development sector. Not sure I'd believe that totally - probably like the UK where they claim they can't get staff, but rule out anyone over a certain age, who doesn't have 5 years experience in a toolset only 3 years old etc etc

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I think with any figures from a politician no matter where they are from if their lips are moving they are lying

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Whichever way you look at it the prospects look bleak, especially for the 50 percent of under 25s.

However my question is, can the govt and police keep the lid on a worsening situation indefinitely ?

Up till now the Spanish ppl have been amazingly tolerant but I think even they will have a breaking point as things deteriorate further and they become ever more disillusioned regarding their future prospects.

We have seen minor violent reactions already and the fact that Spanish police are quick to wade in with truncheons and rubber has probably helped stop any trouble spreading up until now, but I wonder if more extreme reactions may not be too far away ?

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agree, have seen companies complain they can't get staff for their in-house systems/programs whilst pushing them out of the front door.
In one case the system was over 20yrs old, they were employing nearly all the original development staff as consultants and still complaining they couldnt get enough people - but had a "no training" policy. When the originals die then perhaps they will understand, except they have lost 2 people that way already.

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From what I can gather from the Spanish people I speak to an a daily basis, the miners from up north don't get much sympathy down this way. They realise that the mining industry has been over-subsidised for years and is longer viable.

Much the same as back in the UK 30 years ago.

But in other respects, people are angry with the austerity measures and the cuts in everything, from paro to prescription charges. And bank repossessions of houses drive them mad, and there are a lot of those, invariably leading to local protests.

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You may get political demos (no worse than we've seen before, but visually shocking) but the Spanish have been here before in the 90s with high unemployment rates.
I believe the prospects are better now than then, more so if they revert back to an independent currency. For instance the rail industry is growing at a good rate, as shown in the Saudi contract last year, and (for example) the Talgo contract just signed with Kazakstan http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...s-reports.html . They are hoping for one of the two big contracts up for tender this summer, in Russia and Brazil, both of a scale that dwarfs the Saudi project. Other industries are gaining too, which is why exports have performed so well. Plus the IT sector is expanding all the time - a perusal of startup news, m&as and funding rounds in June and July should give an indication of that - http://startupspain.com/last-month-or-two-in-spain/ Additionally for the young they have a lot of opportunities to work abroad (and improve their languages) for instance they can look on this site http://www.mundospanish.com/blog/Bol...rnacional.html
I appreciate things are very tight for those with few skills (or skills in the depressed construction sector), but hopefully things will pick up next year as the private sector continues its better performance. Remember I posted this report from L&G?
http://www.thecorner.eu/2012/07/rece...der-2008-lgim/
http://www.thecorner.eu/wp-content/u.../download7.jpg

Things have been very hard, particularly so it seems in the south and in the resort areas, yet we're being told that hotel occupation rates are up since May. Can anyone confirm or repute this?

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The problem I have with this argument is that back in the 80s, whilst mines were being closed down, the UK was subsidising nuclear power (and also spending billions on a war to protect 2,700 islanders in the south Atlantic). Now you can make the argument that self-defence against an agressor is justified, and also that coal produces dirty energy, and I can accept those arguments. However in the 80s we were told that the mines were being shut for economic reasons (despite the cost of putting whole commuities onto state benefits must surely have had its own cost).

That's why I don't necessarily agree that the Asturian mines should be shut down on purely economic figures - how much has the Spanish state spent on wind and solar energy? How can a redundant Asturian miner find alternative work in his particular valley - it just isn't going to happen. Still at least the Bankia directors got their pay-off bonuses. :thumbdown:

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[QUOTE=steviedeluxe;10168683]You may get political demos (no worse than we've seen before, but visually shocking) but the Spanish have been here before in the 90s with high unemployment rates.
I believe the prospects are better now than then, more so if they revert back to an independent currency[QUOTE]

There is a big difference between now and the 90s

In the 90s people were still thinking that Spain were in transition since Franco - and optimism in Spain was high because things were still gradually improving year on year

This crash has come as a shock to Spaniards. They thought they had made it and were all of a sudden equal to the other EU large economies. And they really thought a poky flat in Barcelona was worth half a million euros...

This has hit them hard and there is no optimism in site. Especially given the way the bankers screwed everyone over. Most Spaniards are socialists at heart

I do finally agree that Spain must leave the Euro. They cannot keep doing what Rajoy announced yesterday, that is a slow road to nowhere.

Lets create a new currency, let inflation get high to inflate the debts away and get on with it. In 5 years time everyone would be happy again and we'd be seeing economic growth

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The only people who have sympathy for the Ast.miners are those directly involved.

Visiting Langreo and other surrounding villages a short while back, the man on the street who had the threat of losing a job (not miners) were rather aggrieved that when others lose their jobs the miners dont show any solidarity towards then, but because the miners and the unions say so, small business have to close their doors and "support" the strike.

They are told in very clear terms, that they are expected to support the strike and the message is clearly there, that if they dont close there "might" be conseuences.

Some of these places are full of early retired miners whe get a good "tanto" each month.

As for them having problems finding a job, as was suggesting by another poster, that is the last thing they need or want, as then the payment they receive every month would cease.

As H said, very little sympathy for them, I knew of this before, but after speaking to a couple of shop/bar/business owners who have lost takings through "supporting" the strike, I did not realise how against them the locals are.

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I think you will always get fors and againsts...

according to this blog there was "huge" support for the miners in Madrid. There again, demos in Madrid often have "huge" support, left wing or right wing. It's the old Two Spains syndrome (or perhaps just human nature).

http://forwhatwearetheywillbe.blogsp...upport-of.html

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I do finally agree that Spain must leave the Euro. They cannot keep doing what Rajoy announced yesterday, that is a slow road to nowhere.

Lets create a new currency, let inflation get high to inflate the debts away and get on with it. In 5 years time everyone would be happy again and we'd be seeing economic growth[/QUOTE]

You are no doubt correct re the Euro and not only for Spain, trouble is though is there any Eurozone country that has enough bottle to tell Germany what to do with the Euro? Look at Greece they bottled it and take the money from Germany. One has to wonder where this will go as even should things pick up down the road a bit Germany is still going to want pay back for bailing out the southern European Countries no free lunch.
There was talk a while ago of 2 speed Euro North South but don't hear much of it now. The Euro certainly seems to be choking these countries, they are already talking in the newspapers that British tourists will shun Spain due to these tax increases. Whether that is true? personally I would think that a lot of Brits have enough problems staying in work and just affording to live to a reasonable standard.

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So today - we have spent £billions in perpetuating a war against people in foreign lands where we are unsure why and if it is all doing any use.
£billions being wasted on a railway line that will cut 3 mins on a journey of approx 100miles but very few will be able to use it.

I didnt agree with the miners actions in the uk and I don't agree with the miners actions in Spain, but at least they have the right to protest and make their point
Our fathers and grandfathers gave their lives to give us all that right - right or wrong, but did they make the ultimate sacrifice to have £/€billions wasted on vanity projects and wars that are not wars.

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When the bitch Thatcher closed down the mines she destroyed whole communities the effects of which can still be seen in some areas where lifelong unemployment is not from choice but by virtue of the fact there are no jobs. Personally I'd rather have my tax money subsidise mining jobs than having people sat with no need to get up in the morning struggling on benefits to put food on the table.

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when Heath asked us the question "who runs this country me and the elected government or the miners and the unions" regrettably we told him the miners and the unions
Thatcher never ever forgot that lesson
Scargill was getting all he wanted and more under the Labour Govt and felt omnipotent, so where would the country have been if he had succeded a second time ???

Coming from Welsh mining family on father's side I understand the feeling, but even so, many of the mines were clapped out, mined out, men were spending more time travelling to the face than actually working.
Should mines have been kept open as a form of charity ? Most miners I ever met never looked for charity - only fair treatment.
OK blame Thatcher bob, but also blame the unions who had been taking their dues every month but dropped people like hot cakes when they were out of a job. They made no effort to support those out of work, even allowing the working mens clubs to refuse membership to many men. That is why unions are so weak nowadays, they cocked up the opportunity back then and never recovered.

Blame someone? Hard but go back to Scargill and ask what happened to all the £millions the Russian miners sent over in support of their British brothers.
Also the more recent scandal of Compensation, where Union appointed solicitors shafted the mines twice or three times in fees that had already been paid by the govt, giving the unions a slice but it has never been seen. Although legal action has been started against some of the solicitors - but the people being compensated have now died penniless and suffering.

Just remember the UK has union officials living in £million houses, fully founded with not a penny to pay. Company cars, chauffeurs. Expensive suits and expense accounts to suit.

It is hard when the reason a community exists closes down. It happened with Tin, Fish, Clay, not just the miners and will happen again, if not in the UK or Spain but in other countries.

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Yes that is the problem.

And its not only about telling Germany they want to leave the Euro

If a country wants to abandon the neo-liberal banking system then they may find themselves at war with the UK/US, if they say they will put taxes on cheap imports, they may find themselves at war with China

Its very difficult for citizens of a country to be in control of their own destiny nowadays

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That's exactly why we have a European currency union. I'm inclined to agree that it hasn't worked, but the principle is sound - individual European countries can't compete with the mighty US, India, China and the others, not in the globalised world we now live in.

Currency speculators like Soros can shut down and ruin entire countries by their evil activity; it happened when the UK was forced out of the ERM, by Soros.

Each small country back with its own currency, like the Peseta in Spain and the Punt in Ireland, is a nationalist's dream, but it's a million miles from reality.

Those currencies, against the Dollar or the Yen, will be like monopoly money, practically worthless.

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You make some good points (a lot of my wife's family were miners including her father) and Arthur was.......don't get me started on him. I nursed a good many miners as they were ending their days, lungs shot to bits with dust, a compensation scheme that I could never fathom out, some chaps applying and getting a cheque in no time while others applied and were dead before payout; e.g. my father in law applied and was told it could take six months before he heard anything more but in fact he had a cheque for £68k within a fortnight. There is no doubt that the unions needed slowing down but to cut a swathe through whole communities leaving them barren was out of order; still drug sales/manufacturing are a booming cottage industry in the valley's these days :(

Quick tale of Arthur, when the strike was going on and people were collecting tins of food to make up food parcels, holding out the money bucket etc, the wife and I went for a meal in Birmingham where we were based at the time. The restaurant was brums finest French eatery, excellent food for the time. Just as our main course was served Arthur and half a dozen others turned up and ordered. I managed to keep the wife quiet and she waited until we were on our way out to walk over and very quietly and succinctly 'read his fortune'. The really annoying part is that his predictions as to the future of the coal industry were right :(

So, should Spain continue to subsidise the coal industry? For me the answer is yes, without a doubt.

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Closing down the mines was the right thing to do - what she got wrong was not providing development funds for the communities affected. However 13 years of a Labour government will have sorted that out won't it?:sneaky:

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Quite a few of those miners with the collecting buckets were convicted. A few had been throwing money around whilst on strike and two had bought new cars:( The NUM, well mainly Scargill, accepted money from gadaffi, he did as much as anyone to bring about the end of the industry. The steel, shipbuilding and fishing industry also disappeared and there weren't too many showing any concern about them.

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Correct, and at the end of the day you can´t go on subsidising every loss making industry ad infinitum, mining was no more deserving than any of the others in my mind.

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Funny how umpteen billions can always be found for the bankers though, isn't it? :thumbdown:

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Lots of development funds were available, much taken too, sadly when the business funding/discounts ran out so did the companies.

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Love em or hate em, when Tories are in, we always get riots and stikes, looks similar here now doesn't it?

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Of course we do. The Tories put the money in the bank by reducing the spending, the country eventually gets fed up with it and vote in the Labour party they then promise the earth to everyone, spend it all and some more and when we are skint the Tories come back and it all starts again.

What's the point of a Libdem?

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Absolutely.

The thickest of people know that you cannot keep a buisness going that is losing money for ever. The taxpayer bailed out the miners and the unions for too long. Thatcher halted the gravy train.

Miners for some reason always belived that they were a special case, Why? They knew it was a shit job when they started, they knew it wouldn't last because imported coal was cheaper but still they followed their forebears down the pit. Why? because they believed it was a well paid job for life. The Unions had the country to ransome and they thought they were invincible.

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They exercised their right to strike, but strongly opposed the right of those that wanted to continue working with their bully boy tactics. I think when they dropped lumps of concrete from a bridge killing an innocent taxi driver they lost most public support they might have had.

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The only good thing about Scargill .. he had woolly hair like me ....alas not so intelligent though!

:(

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That sums it up nicely.

Back to Spain,....will the population continue to remain under control, if as forecast unemployment continues to rise for quite a few years to come and the interest rate on the bail out/loan remains unsustainable ?

I tend to agree with previous posts, that a fresh start with a new currency is the best way forward.

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Surely that would depend if when changing the money back to the new one, that a realistic level is negociated, otherwise the value of the money in banks as personal savings would plummet overnight.

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Yes, but savings aren't the problem, debts are

The value of debts would plummet with inflation, especially if the exchange rate was set at a generous amount at the beginning

The whole purpose of a currency change would be to inflate debt away. In such a case, make sure you have savings in a foreign currency!

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Well you say that saving are not the problem, but they are, as people will be looking for ways to conserve them.

If the new currency did not equal near enough to the value of the euro, then the business that have to rely on buying from abroad (raw materials and such) would not be able to buy to the same extent, and quite a few small manufactures that I know of, would find it really tough to carry on, as their customers would/could not pay the higher price that would be charged to cover the conversion loss on raw materials.

Which might help with debt control, but lead to a lot of job losses.

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Yep, in the short term it would wipe out savings and many businesses

Leaving the Euro would be terrible in the short term but give hope in the mid term

At the moment, we are looking at a slow death over the next 10 years or so

There is no good or easy solution

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Agreed.

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A lot of Eurozone countries are starting to think along the same lines, how can we live with nothing but austerity for the foreseeable future? What about our children's future?

For them the Euro years have turned from untold riches to start with into untold misery.

They need a volunteer to put their head over the parapet to see what happens when the old currency is reintroduced. They may have found one - Greece can't survive in the Eurozone and will probably have to return to the Drachma. Soon.

Then the other southern European countries can watch from the sidelines; depending on what happens in Greece, Spain's printing presses will be ready to churn out those lovely Peseta notes once more.

But there may be an even earlier solution to the Euro crisis. The country with the most Eurosceptics in Europe is Germany, by far. They want out and the Deutschmarks are already being printed. Mrs Merkel has an election next year and already knows that she is for the chop.

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and why is that the fault of the hard working miners ?

Thatcher had a far better plan, let's close all those lame duck industries. Put the workers on the dole and subsidise the bankers.

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There were actually more pits closed and communities broken up by Socialist govts before Maggies time.

Strange it rarely gets a mention. :confused:

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I know everyone keeps suggesting that Greece or Spain or A.N. other should leave the Euro but the mechanicas of how this works must be exercising someone's mind. As soon as someone gets wind of it (and they'll never be able to keep quiet thet they are printing new notes) everyone will want to withdraw their money from the banks to prevent the accounts being frozen - wasn't that what happened with Northern Rock? Firstly is there enough money in the banks and secondly what's to stop everyone then going to another EU country to convert the money back at what would be a nice healthy profit? Answers on a postcard to A Merkel perhaps??