UK mot
Feb 18th 2009 | 4:40 am
#31
Straw Man.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 46,302
From: That, there, that's not my post count... nothing to see here, move along.
Re: UK mot
I honestly cant believe this is still being discussed..... I thought we established a while back that each area had slightly different rules and regulations?!?!?!?
Feb 18th 2009 | 4:45 am
#32
Senior Moment
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 20,459
From: On the edge
Re: UK mot
Cool
So the rules regarding legality in country of registration dont apply any more?
So the rules regarding legality in country of registration dont apply any more?
Feb 18th 2009 | 5:19 am
#33
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,231
From: Granada Costa
Re: UK mot
Yes, of course they do.
A person who drives down to Spain for a few months in the winter and drives back to the UK and taxes and MOTs it there is driving a perfectly legal car in Spain.
A person who drives down to Spain for a few months in the winter and drives back to the UK and taxes and MOTs it there is driving a perfectly legal car in Spain.
Feb 18th 2009 | 5:23 am
#34
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,231
From: Granada Costa
Re: UK mot
The only regional differences are that individual member states can ignore them if they wish to, but they cannot impose more stringent rules.
But then we all know that Spain chooses to do exactly what it likes!
Feb 18th 2009 | 5:29 am
#35
RETIRED ;-))
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 20,156
From: Benalmadena Pueblo,Spain
Re: UK mot
JDR, I am not sure you are 100% right on this point.
Yes, the law now requires you to sign on the foreigners register after 90 days in Spain but that does not necessarily make you a legal resident of Spain. Let's be quite clear here, you do not get issued with a "residencia certificate". You "apply for registration as an EU citizen on the central register of foreigners". This does not necessarily make you a "resident".
There are actually two different certificates. If you have lived in Spain for 5 years you can apply for a certificate of entitlement to permanent residence in Spain. The certificate looks identical but the wording is slightly different. If you hold one of these then you could reasonably be expected to be a true "resident" but by then you would have become tax resident anyway.
Under this law all those thousands of holiday home owners who regularly spend a few months in Spain in the winter are also obliged to sign on this register (not than any of them do so).
If they did, that clearly would not make them resident with regard to the laws applying to foreign cars in Spain as many of them quite legally drive down to Spain and return at the end of their holiday.
The only clearly defined form of Spanish residency is tax residency, which I am sure we all know is when you spend more than 183 days in Spain in one calendar year. It is also this type of residency that determines you rights to not pay NR taxes, CGT and IHT. The holding of a foreigners registration certificate is not considered to be relevant in these cases.
The rules about replating you car when you become resident are simple - when you become permanently resident you should replate it as soon as possible and at worst within 6 months - that is the EU wide rule laid down by the EU.
The problem is that residency status is not clearly defined (apart from tax residency and right to permanent residency) and the new 90 day requirement for a registration certificate has confused the situation even more.
On the very few (sadly) occasions where people have had their cars impounded it has been quite clear to the Guardia that they are long term residents from obvious "clues" like the kids go to the local school or they have been driving their old van around with builders materials in it for the last few years. In the simplest cases the lack of a UK tax disk is good enough proof.
Unfortunately is is still a "grey" area (even more than before the changes) so there will be many conflicting and often wrong interpretations of the way these new rules affect such things as car ownership etc.
Yes, the law now requires you to sign on the foreigners register after 90 days in Spain but that does not necessarily make you a legal resident of Spain. Let's be quite clear here, you do not get issued with a "residencia certificate". You "apply for registration as an EU citizen on the central register of foreigners". This does not necessarily make you a "resident".
There are actually two different certificates. If you have lived in Spain for 5 years you can apply for a certificate of entitlement to permanent residence in Spain. The certificate looks identical but the wording is slightly different. If you hold one of these then you could reasonably be expected to be a true "resident" but by then you would have become tax resident anyway.
Under this law all those thousands of holiday home owners who regularly spend a few months in Spain in the winter are also obliged to sign on this register (not than any of them do so).
If they did, that clearly would not make them resident with regard to the laws applying to foreign cars in Spain as many of them quite legally drive down to Spain and return at the end of their holiday.
The only clearly defined form of Spanish residency is tax residency, which I am sure we all know is when you spend more than 183 days in Spain in one calendar year. It is also this type of residency that determines you rights to not pay NR taxes, CGT and IHT. The holding of a foreigners registration certificate is not considered to be relevant in these cases.
The rules about replating you car when you become resident are simple - when you become permanently resident you should replate it as soon as possible and at worst within 6 months - that is the EU wide rule laid down by the EU.
The problem is that residency status is not clearly defined (apart from tax residency and right to permanent residency) and the new 90 day requirement for a registration certificate has confused the situation even more.
On the very few (sadly) occasions where people have had their cars impounded it has been quite clear to the Guardia that they are long term residents from obvious "clues" like the kids go to the local school or they have been driving their old van around with builders materials in it for the last few years. In the simplest cases the lack of a UK tax disk is good enough proof.
Unfortunately is is still a "grey" area (even more than before the changes) so there will be many conflicting and often wrong interpretations of the way these new rules affect such things as car ownership etc.
It clearly states on it.... residente comunitario en Espana ....... and is the one they got along with an NIE number when we registered them at the police station as foreigners now living in Spain.
PS, it is a residencia certificate as it accompanied their E121`s at the Social office later.
Last edited by jdr; Feb 18th 2009 at 5:34 am.
Feb 18th 2009 | 5:29 am
#36
Straw Man.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 46,302
From: That, there, that's not my post count... nothing to see here, move along.
Re: UK mot
The rules and regulations are set by the EU with regard to free movement of people and cars etc across the EU.
The only regional differences are that individual member states can ignore them if they wish to, but they cannot impose more stringent rules.
But then we all know that Spain chooses to do exactly what it likes!
The only regional differences are that individual member states can ignore them if they wish to, but they cannot impose more stringent rules.
But then we all know that Spain chooses to do exactly what it likes!
Spain has never been anything else than confusing..................
Feb 18th 2009 | 5:01 pm
#38
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 443
Re: UK mot
My understanding of the justification, to the EU, for the 3 month "thing" was that it was for the purpose of National Security so that they knew who was in the country and where. The word "Intend" also seems to crop up quite frequently - 89 days good 90 days bad. It would seem to me to be quite a good legal catch-all for detaining someone temporarily if you wanted to. But then I am somewhat paranoid about certain things.
I have been stopped a number of times by the Guardia in the middle of the night heading north to catch the Ferry along the so called drug route. In each case they made a point of checking my Road Tax disc and docs before getting down to the real purpose of drugs. Which can be quite hilarious to two OAPs who have never smoked the stuff, as they go through the various slang expressions for Marijuana and in all but one case with great civility. In that one case they looked as if they had been on duty all weekend on a drug bust and clearly resented the time wasted stopping two tourists when they had better fish to fry and who can blame them?
Jim
I have been stopped a number of times by the Guardia in the middle of the night heading north to catch the Ferry along the so called drug route. In each case they made a point of checking my Road Tax disc and docs before getting down to the real purpose of drugs. Which can be quite hilarious to two OAPs who have never smoked the stuff, as they go through the various slang expressions for Marijuana and in all but one case with great civility. In that one case they looked as if they had been on duty all weekend on a drug bust and clearly resented the time wasted stopping two tourists when they had better fish to fry and who can blame them?
Jim
Feb 19th 2009 | 1:53 am
#39
RETIRED ;-))
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 20,156
From: Benalmadena Pueblo,Spain
Re: UK mot
This certificate is the one that they need as proof of residencia for the Social Security when you register for Spanish health care.
Feb 19th 2009 | 3:10 am
#40
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,231
From: Granada Costa
Re: UK mot
My point is that the question of residency is now a very confused area.
Take two cases. The first, Granny Jones comes to Spain on a 4 month Saga holiday. Officially she has to register after 90 days and a month later deregister. Is he a resident or not?
The second, Flash Fred, lives in Marbella permanently but at the end of each 89 day period goes to Portugal to play golf. When he gets back the clock starts ticking again. So long as he does this regularly he is not obliged to register. However he is tax resident and pays his taxes because he exceeds the 183 day tax residency rule.
Confusing? Yes - exactly my point!
.
Feb 19th 2009 | 5:32 am
#41
Popping in for a chat
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,573
From: Back home
Re: UK mot
I wasn't aware that Spain is a community - the EU is though.
My point is that the question of residency is now a very confused area.
Take two cases. The first, Granny Jones comes to Spain on a 4 month Saga holiday. Officially she has to register after 90 days and a month later deregister. Is he a resident or not?
The second, Flash Fred, lives in Marbella permanently but at the end of each 89 day period goes to Portugal to play golf. When he gets back the clock starts ticking again. So long as he does this regularly he is not obliged to register. However he is tax resident and pays his taxes because he exceeds the 183 day tax residency rule.
Confusing? Yes - exactly my point!
.
My point is that the question of residency is now a very confused area.
Take two cases. The first, Granny Jones comes to Spain on a 4 month Saga holiday. Officially she has to register after 90 days and a month later deregister. Is he a resident or not?
The second, Flash Fred, lives in Marbella permanently but at the end of each 89 day period goes to Portugal to play golf. When he gets back the clock starts ticking again. So long as he does this regularly he is not obliged to register. However he is tax resident and pays his taxes because he exceeds the 183 day tax residency rule.
Confusing? Yes - exactly my point!
.
Feb 19th 2009 | 7:04 am
#43
RETIRED ;-))
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 20,156
From: Benalmadena Pueblo,Spain
Re: UK mot
Confusion ends at the Social office if they are happy with the paperwork. lol
When I took our E121`s in they forgot to ad her indoors on as a dependant, I thought noooo, obviously they keep all the paperwork so I was expecting a nightmare of where is this and this etc.
I just went in showed him my bit of paper and explained the problem, he added her name on the computer and printed it out, magic.
When I took our E121`s in they forgot to ad her indoors on as a dependant, I thought noooo, obviously they keep all the paperwork so I was expecting a nightmare of where is this and this etc.
I just went in showed him my bit of paper and explained the problem, he added her name on the computer and printed it out, magic.
Feb 19th 2009 | 7:15 pm
#44
Just Joined
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 9
Re: UK mot
Bengy I dont think its personal issues, its that the question of cars comes up so often on here.
Many people think they can live here and pay their taxes in the UK
Many think they can still use the NHS when they are no longer UK residents
And more than anything, many people think they can bring a UK car over to Spain and just leave it here forever and a day legally ....... and they can't.
The fact that they do it doesnt make it legal, its just that they get away with it. There are all kinds of issues re MOT, road tax, insurance etc etc.
Many people think they can live here and pay their taxes in the UK
Many think they can still use the NHS when they are no longer UK residents
And more than anything, many people think they can bring a UK car over to Spain and just leave it here forever and a day legally ....... and they can't.
The fact that they do it doesnt make it legal, its just that they get away with it. There are all kinds of issues re MOT, road tax, insurance etc etc.
Bengy
Feb 19th 2009 | 11:17 pm
#45
RETIRED ;-))
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 20,156
From: Benalmadena Pueblo,Spain
Re: UK mot
I quite agree, I am mainly talking from a UK resident point of view, with a holiday home in Spain, which I spend less than six Months in , BUT may I suggest than interested parties invest in a very well written publication by DAVID SEARL "YOU AND THE LAW IN SPAIN" all is very well covered here from all aspects. So I will no longer respond to this debate.
Bengy
Bengy
It should only be used as a rough guide. ;-))
