HBG

Because of the atrocious weather today, we've all been stuck indoors, eating and drinking too much and watching far too much television.

Along the way, I watched three Christmas messages, in order, from the King of Spain, the Queen of England, and Edward Snowden the spy who defected to Russia.

I could easily have written the Royal speeches myself, most of us could have, they were entirely predictable and exactly what the plebs need after another year of servitude.

I didn't know what to make of Snowden because I have a natural hatred of grasses of any sort, but some of his words made me think. He quoted Orwell, an author I admire, and perhaps he (and Snowden) weren't that far out in their predictions.

But it's Christmas and perhaps a Carry On film will be more cheerful.

Dick Dasterdly

Snowden is a Traitor and should be shot....end of.

Not only that but a total Hypocrite to jump into bed with a country guilty of a great many more human rights etc than those about which he complains.

As for Orwell, much overrated IMHO.
1984 never happened and is not happening now unless of course people by their own choice fix video cameras in every room in their houses and transmit it for all to see.
As for cameras in public places, so what ?
Unless they're totally stupid folk must be aware that their every action in public places is already freely available for the whole world and his wife to see.
Off course those caught on camera red handed committing crimes, aren't to sweet on the idea.
Great !

HBG

I don't agree about Orwell, but if Snowden got shot I wouldn't shed any tears.

But does it mean we shouldn't at least worry about some of the intrusions in our lives? We might all cheer when the villains get caught on camera doing their dastardly deeds, but why should those shadowy and unaccountable people at the NSA and GCHQ have details of our telephone conversations with our grandchildren?

I spoke to one of mine today who got an Xbox for Christmas. He's only ten and every time he switches it on some horrible clown sitting underground at Bude in Cornwall will know everything he does.

I don't think it's right.

jjh

I don´t either. I don´t agree with Snowden going to Russia. However, I think he did us all a favour in so far as he´s told us about the snooping. I know we probably knew it but did we know it was so far advanced? The USA is now reviewing its policy on intelligence gathering.

As far as looking at global terrorism is concerned, then it´s a good thing but, personally, I don´t want my emails and phone calls overheard, even if I am as clean as a whistle. I think this has gone a step too far. Only my opinion, of course.

Dick Dasterdly

Do you seriously think these ppl you unjustifiably ridicule as "clowns" really care a monkeys uncle about conversations with your grandchildren ?????

It's inevitable that such conversations will be overheard in the quest for essential information, but to date I have not seen a scrap of credible evidence that such recordings have been used for any other reasons than those affecting national security.

Now compare that with what happens with information gained by Snowdens pals in Moscow and consider which you believe is for the greater good, or would you prefer to continue your pacifist approach and let all and sundry trample us into the ground rather than risk causing them the slightest offence in any shape or form ?

Sally Redux

We don't actually have a person called 'Big Brother', but Orwell was certainly not far off with surveillance, two minutes' hate and endless war.

HBG

We all know the surveillance goes on and needs to go on, but how much do we need to know? We know our security services haven't just picked on a group of Asians in Walthamstow who just happened to plan blowing up airliners over our cities with a new kind of undetectable liquid bomb.

We usually get them in time and lock them away, but when they get through and kill people we are horrified.

That said, does the ordinary man in the street need to know that everything he does is under surveillance? Would it not have been better to have kept it quiet and leave it to the trained experts to do their dirty work without our knowledge?

I don't know the answer. I don't know whether the Guardian, New York Times, Washington Post and Der Spiegel were right in publishing a tiny part of Snowden's revelations.

I fear there's a lot more to come.

(I was going to say that an ordinary guy like me has not been directly affected by terrorism, but it's not true. Around then years ago my wife and I had just left the Queenburger restaurant in Torrevieja when an ETA bomb went off and destroyed the place.)

Dick Dasterdly

There's quite a difference between being watched for security purposes in places which are open to the public anyway and always had been, as against having every single sound and movement in the privacy of your own home watched and recorded as predicted by Orwell.

As for his prediction of hate and endless wars what was fresh there anyway ?

It was quite obviously already happening long before his time and there's little sign of it abating in the future.

agoreira

Is it? What you mean is, it says it has, which is what you wanted to hear, personally I don't think it will matter a jot to them. They do whatever they think they should do to keep the country safe, and if listening to my calls, reading my mails, watching me on securty cameras helps do that, carry on.

Sally Redux

Monitoring all internet activity is getting close.

The book was not a prediction as such, but a reflection on society as it existed when written with its inherent dangers.

HBG

I suppose you could successfully argue that mass surveillance limits terrorism, you could stretch the argument that mass surveillance even helps to prevent wars.

You could also argue that chemical castration limits devious sexual behaviour, depending very much on the definition of Devious.

But it all comes at a price, and the price is personal freedom, the right to say what you want to say without being locked up or having a bracelet fitted to your ankle to make sure you only roam within certain times and certain limits.

I'm against terrorism, against unjust wars, against paedophilia, and in favour of personal freedom, so occasionally I have a problem.

Dick Dasterdly

You have a choice regarding what information you place on the internet.

In any event by far the biggest risk lies with those monitoring your online activity solely for fraudulent or harmful purposes.


With regard to his reflection on society and inherent dangers, he would have put the DM to shame for sensationalism and exaggeration were it ever taken seriously.

HBG

Who do we take our lessons in life from? My contention is that nothing beats our literary greats, our philosophers, like Orwell. But another one has just come to mind, an American this time.

Stephen King. And Misery. And the word Hobbled.

We are hobbled by all sorts of things in life, probably without knowing it half the time. A man with a beard came down from a mountain with a slate containing ten rules to follow in life, and the hobbling started.

Getting back to mass surveillance (hobbling on a massive scale), I admire two politicians, out of thousands. One, Zapatero, is Spanish and he got the Spanish troops out of Iraq as soon as he was elected.

The other one is Angela Merkel, a German. She had the world and most of her own country against her when she refused to join in the bombing of Libya.

That's what King was writing about in Misery – you can chop someone's foot off, but it doesn't stop their 'rebellious' thinking.

angiescarr

Interestingly I've recently found out that young people in Spain often daren't speak out about injustice/corruption etc because they are told by their parents that it is dangerous to do so. parents who have lost their own parents or grandparents in the Guerra civil. It's not so far back that the nervousness isn't still there. I was a bit shocked and disquieted about this I have to admit. Having grown up in a country where the worst dire warning passed down by parents and Grandparents was that 'careless talk costs lives' (as in revealing war secrets). But we never expected it to be our own lives personally... Some of the Spanish still do! It's quite sad to say...but they may have a point.

Dick Dasterdly

Quite agree, I've noticed it myself.

Maybe a lot of it is down to respecting their elders and the fact that many marriages and partnerships have resulted from offspring from those on opposite sides who were deeply involved in the civil war itself.

I also think that it's so deeply engraved in the Spanish mindset, that it's one reason there hasn't been open revolt and widespread violence as a result of the present Govt's punitive Franco-like rule.