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Tax avoidence/evasion
What do you think of tax avoidance? Is it OK? Should we bend over and allow the tax man take whatever he wants for the benefit of 'society'? Or is it our duty to ourselves and our family to legally avoid taxes - eg by investing in ISAs, National Savings, etc in order to maximise our disposable income which we know best how to spend?
What about what they now call aggressive tax avoidance? If the tax laws allow individuals or companies to protect their wealth then why shouldn't they? Is it the fault of the individual or company or the laxity of the tax laws? Or is it our moral and civic duty to pay whatever taxes the state wants? What is the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion - discuss! Is it morally wrong for governments to set domestic tax rates in order to attract inward investments for the benefit of their own citizens even if this makes them a 'tax haven' in other peoples eyes? Or should there be a single homogenous global tax system so that everybody pays the same? Should British Expats arrange their tax affairs so they only pay their taxes where they are lowest or should they continue to pay some tax to Britain in order to still claim to be British? I started this thread so that certain people - and they will know who they are - will have an arena to discuss and argue then rather than hijacking other threads across the forum.;) |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Because it's one of my peeves, and is one piece of a much larger puzzle that I believe is directly related to our economic struggles, I'll be the first to chime in with this:
First, nobody aspires to pay any more tax than they must. I have to believe that any tax authority anywhere would be gobsmacked by anyone asking to pay more than they have to. In that way, we all are guilty of tax avoidance in one way or another. Tax avoidance is a entire industry - and I'm not talking about tax havens. It varies by country (and tax policy) but in Germany for example, you'll find a steuerberater ("tax adviser") on virtually every street corner. This is no anomaly. German tax policy is so complex, that most people have to use a tax adviser to avoid getting overtaxed - often grossly so, if you aren't paying attention. And the German tax authority (finanzamt), is one of the most aggressive in the world, and enjoys some very special "freedoms" in how it collects tax. "Aggressive" tax avoidance. This is when an individual or company goes to extraordinary lengths to utilise every possible legal loophole to minimise its tax burden to the absolute minimum. It's not illegal, but is arguably, immoral. And I think that's a debatable point, after all, a "good citizen" shouldn't be inclined to avoid paying its "fair share". I can't disagree with that sentiment. However, it can be equally argued that any tax adviser worth it's pay would be as good at its job as it can possibly be. In a business, you hire someone to do a job. When they do it well, they generate extraordinary results. A good tax adviser is no different. When they legally save someone €1M in taxes, then I doubt many would complain about it. And considering that in most European tax systems, the legal loopholes are staggering (and I'd argue that they aren't "mistakes" - they are there for a reason - but that's another topic). And considering the high levels of taxation - particularly on high-net-worth individuals, there is every incentive to take advantage of them. I probably wouldn't bat an eye. And even though some - especially those that aren't fortunate enough to be in that position - would like to believe they are "morally superior" and would feel a "moral" obligation to pay more, I'd have to believe that under the very same circumstances, "morals" would never enter their mind. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how humans are, not some idealistic view of how they should be. Tax "evasion" - well, this is what it says on the tin. A conscious, calculated evasion of taxes. Illegal, and that says everything. Not much more to say, really. Now, "tax avoidance" is a topical point of debate right now, especially in light of the upcoming political elections. Political rhetoric, mostly. As evidenced by the fact that like most people, key members of all parties have demonstrably participated in varying degrees of tax avoidance in one way or another. I don't find that the least bit surprising. Nor that they accuse each other of it. Like most people, pretty much all of them are guilty of it, and it's an election year, after all. The reality is that there is a direct relationship between tax policy and tax avoidance/evasion, as well as economic prosperity. It's no secret that Europe tops the list of the world's most taxed, yet equally suffers from both a chronic inability to achieve tangible economic growth, and it is amongst the world's most prolific in terms of chronic tax avoidance / evasion. To dismiss any correlation between them is to ignore reality - historically a very European character when it comes to economic issues. Yet, the subject of tax relief is rarely ever considered. In fact, the response to the crisis wasn't to stimulate growth through, amongst other things, tax relief, it's response was to increase taxes. Especially the types that are most difficult to avoid - VAT, which has only burdened the average individual - not the elite. So, my view is that Europe needs to get it's economic house in order, consider that it's supposed to be serving the population, rather than served by the population, and consider the adverse effects of it's own tax greed, before presuming that collecting more tax is the answer. After all, those who impose less taxes - particularly on average taxpayers - not only have much lower tax avoidance and evasion, but are also enjoying growing economies, with higher tax collections. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
A recent report from the Office of Budget Responsibility has stated that the overall tax take - particularly from HNW demographic - has INCREASED since the higher tax band rate was reduced from 50% to 45% in the UK. And yet the policy of the Labour party is to restore the 50% rate. This cannot be for economic reasons - simply the politics of envy.
ISTM that it is the politics of envy which drives most of the rhetoric over tax avoidance. After all, how did the HNW individuals accumulate their wealth?, with a few notable exceptions which hit the headlines, by adding to the overall wealth of their country. I'm not a HNW person (although I was once very briefly but that's another story) in fact I am now a poor pensioner :( (;)) but I don't begrudge the wealth creators from enjoying the fruits of their labours. They already contribute a huge amount of the overall tax take according to the OBR report, and their taxes pay my pension. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
The difference between avoidance and evasion is simply whether at the time the act is judged to be legal or not.
With the increase demands from society for health, education, social support, infrastructure governments will need to increase the overall tax take even with increases in economic growth. The average man in the street cannot and will not accept that he should pay more tax and the result will be more emphasis on closing the mass of loopholes that many legally exploit. The alternative would be to let public services stagnate and then decline which is not acceptable and would be the end of any party that advocated it. Tax gatherers need to start to think differently and apply higher taxes on spending in areas which would not affect the basic economy or the average tax payer. Higher stamp duty on luxury homes, close the loopholes regarding company and trusts buying the property etc Increase vat on what can be regarded as discretionary purchases, the 50in TV , jewelry etc etc. Who actually needs a 50 in curved screen , TV made in Korea and why should it and similar products not carry 50% vat. You could say the same about mobile phones , Ipads etc. End so called duty free or tax paid concessions. You could have different levels of vat/tax on imported products and genuinly home produced. EG .The UK produced Honda or Nissan would have lower tax on it than a BMW. As AM writes those who can afford it will still buy them, those who cannot would spend their money in different ways. But at least they would still have it rather than having more taken out of their wage each month. Is this socio economic engineering, well maybe it is. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by MikeJ
(Post 11573731)
A recent report from the Office of Budget Responsibility has stated that the overall tax take - particularly from HNW demographic - has INCREASED since the higher tax band rate was reduced from 50% to 45% in the UK. And yet the policy of the Labour party is to restore the 50% rate. This cannot be for economic reasons - simply the politics of envy.
ISTM that it is the politics of envy which drives most of the rhetoric over tax avoidance. After all, how did the HNW individuals accumulate their wealth?, with a few notable exceptions which hit the headlines, by adding to the overall wealth of their country. I'm not a HNW person (although I was once very briefly but that's another story) in fact I am now a poor pensioner :( (;)) but I don't begrudge the wealth creators from enjoying the fruits of their labours. They already contribute a huge amount of the overall tax take according to the OBR report, and their taxes pay my pension. Say what you will about the Americans, but they target business and capital gains for the largest chunks of their tax revenue, and serve a far lighter sentence on the average taxpayer. This has two key economic benefits: a) puts more money in the hands of consumers, who spend it, which b) facilitates a market of spenders for businesses, who are taxed on their gains, which demonstrably, are substantial. There's also c) minimises incentives for most to avoid/evade taxes. but wait, there's d) incentivising individuals to innovate, build a better moustrap, etc. Startups in the US are easier to establish, and are generally more successful than European equivalents, and can still become wildly successful. Something that's much more muted in Europe, where we tend to penalise small business in favour of institutional industrial giants. But that's more of a regulatory issue than simply taxation - another piece of the puzzle that plagues Europe. ...and of course, e) less incubation of extremist political ideologies emerging out of public desperation - which for Europe at present, represents perhaps even more risk than simply our failing economics. It's a much simpler system to enforce, is fairer to the average taxpayer, encourages prosperity and economic growth, discourages political instability, and is more self-regenerating. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
There is one huge difference between the US and European economies and that is the % social expenditure is of their GDP.
This is not an economic arguement but a philosophical one. The case for the US tax system would make sense if the tax revenues it generated still provided the levels of state health care etc etc etc that we have come to accept and demand as a society. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
I have to agree. There is a fundamental philosophical difference.
The European ideology is largely based on the concept of wealth distribution (e.g., wealth as an entitlement), whilst Americans subscribe to a philosophy of earning wealth. Here is a very interesting study of that, from the standpoint of work ethic differences between Europe and the US. Europeans Work To Live and Americans Live To Work And demonstrably, it has tangible economic consequences for both Europe and the US. Healthcare is a completely different issue, although the US economy could substantially benefit from say, the NHS model of economies of scale. But the NHS is a very mature institution, developed over generations, and can't be simply "turned on" like a light switch. Besides, Americans would first have to overcome their (understandable) aversion to large, paternal government institutions before they'd ever be able to embrace it politically. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by amideislas
(Post 11573785)
I have to agree. There is a fundamental philosophical difference.
The European ideology is largely based on the concept of wealth distribution (e.g., wealth as an entitlement), whilst Americans subscribe to a philosophy of earning wealth. Here is a very interesting study of that, from the standpoint of work ethic differences between Europe and the US. Europeans Work To Live and Americans Live To Work And demonstrably, it has tangible economic consequences for both Europe and the US. Is the US economy a better example because it rewards some but by default punishes others by depriving them of that which we in Europe regard as a basic right. Is Tax evaision any less of an issue in the US ? Hardly if you look at the high profile cases such as Stanford and Maidoff etc etc. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by EMR
(Post 11573820)
Plus a marked difference between the haves and have nots !!
Is the US economy a better example because it rewards some but by default punishes others by depriving them of that which we in Europe regard as a basic right. Is Tax evaision any less of an issue in the US ? Hardly if you look at the high profile cases such as Stanford and Maidoff etc etc. And whilst there is a greater gap in the US than in Europe, Europe's wealth disparity is climbing faster, all over, but particularly Greece, Italy, Spain. Even Germany. I'd argue that's predictable as the first decade of living beyond our means on Euro-euphoria comes to a close, and particularly since Europe primarily burdens the working class for its economic failings. Still, tax evasion as a percentage of GDP in the US is roughly half of that of Europe, and Americans subscribe to far more elevated "tax morality" than Europeans (and frankly, the decline in citizenship morality is another predictable result of a paternal state, and another piece of the overall puzzle - another time). I've offered plenty of evidence to support that in other threads that you have participated in. I can't be arsed to put it all up for you to ignore again. But here's a brief summary: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lDqbqzDndm...Q/s1600/01.jpg |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by EMR
(Post 11573732)
Increase vat on what can be regarded as discretionary purchases, the 50in TV , jewelry etc etc.
Who actually needs a 50 in curved screen , TV made in Korea and why should it and similar products not carry 50% vat. You could say the same about mobile phones , Ipads etc. . |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by EMR
(Post 11573820)
Is the US economy a better example because it rewards some but by default punishes others by depriving them of that which we in Europe regard as a basic right.
What basic rights should a government provide? Health and education personally are right there at or near the top of the list. But I question the need to push so many people into academic higher education and think we need a better spread including apprenticeships and more hands on workplace education. Also should people be paid benefits for staying at home because they are unable or unwilling to find work. That may differ at times due to economic variances and any policy would require flexibility. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by EMR
(Post 11573820)
Is the US economy a better example because it rewards some but by default punishes others by depriving them of that which we in Europe regard as a basic right. In the former, wealth (wherever that comes from??) is "distributed" to the population - a "basic right" as you suggest. In the latter, wealth is not a basic "right", it must be earned. In that case, unfortunately, some will be wealthy, some will not. Fortunately, in the US, the middle class still outnumbers both the rich and poor by many orders of magnitude, and it is indeed still possible to earn wealth and enjoy it without it being taken from you. So, as long as we Europeans have the "wealthy" to pay for it all, we'll be just dandy. However, penalising that wealth (as you often advise) naturally makes it much harder to earn, and take from those who do - and "distribute" to those who are "entitled" to it. Sound remotely reminiscent of anything you've recently heard on the news? No wonder people are pissed. Goddam wealthy barstewards. We're entitled! |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
As higher taxes promote more tax avoidance AND corporation tax is higher in the US than in the UK AND Starbucks, Amazon and Google all avoid paying UK corporation tax - then presumably they also contrive to avoid paying US corporation tax even more aggressively.
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Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Oju
Originally Posted by Fredbargate
(Post 11573848)
That raises a whole new host of questions.
What basic rights should a government provide? Health and education personally are right there at or near the top of the list. But I question the need to push so many people into academic higher education and think we need a better spread including apprenticeships and more hands on workplace education. Also should people be paid benefits for staying at home because they are unable or unwilling to find work. That may differ at times due to economic variances and any policy would require flexibility. It is time that the emphasis in further education was not on the A star candidate but the child who in an earlier time went straight into employment as an apprentice or trainee. This is where the genuine tax incentive for an employer could work. Tackling the socially deprived or exploiters of the system is not something that the tax system can solve. Maybe we just have to accept that they are a lost cause and that many will never become contributors to the economy rather remain as just consumers. Creating worthwhile rewarding employment for the current and future generations of our young people requires a radical change in policies. But as those who vote governments inorderto power are not those who we should be focussing on there is little chance of those changes happening. Simply if a government said that it was going to freeze pensions and all other benefits for the elderly and transfer that money into creating jobs for the young it would lose power at the very next election. Thus its a catch 22 situation ,we all want economy to improve.we want the skill base to rise but we are not prepared to accept that those with will have to receive less from the state in the future. Therefore the only thing leftt is to raise tax revenue and so the circle of evasion/ avoidence will continue. As for the UK having its own vat regime being in the EU is not an obstacle almost every member country has its own tax system. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by jimenato
(Post 11573886)
As higher taxes promote more tax avoidance AND corporation tax is higher in the US than in the UK AND Starbucks, Amazon and Google all avoid paying UK corporation tax - then presumably they also contrive to avoid paying US corporation tax even more aggressively.
For example, Luxembourg isn't solely populated with US companies. It's a favourite for European companies and has been for a long time. Recent scrutiny by politicians and media organisations of aggressive structures used by technology groups such as Apple, Google and Amazon have suggested US digital firms are at the vanguard of cross-border tax avoidance. But today’s revelations show many European multinationals in non-digital industries have also made extensive use of tax engineering. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by amideislas
(Post 11573879)
Well, you illustrate precisely what I mean by "wealth as an entitlement" as opposed to "earned wealth". It is a fundamental difference in ideology.
In the former, wealth (wherever that comes from??) is "distributed" to the population - a "basic right" as you suggest. In the latter, wealth is not a basic "right", it must be earned. In that case, unfortunately, some will be wealthy, some will not. Fortunately, in the US, the middle class still outnumbers both the rich and poor by many orders of magnitude, and it is indeed still possible to earn wealth and enjoy it without it being taken from you. So, as long as we Europeans have the "wealthy" to pay for it all, we'll be just dandy. However, penalising that wealth (as you often advise) naturally makes it much harder to earn, and take from those who do - and "distribute" to those who are "entitled" to it. Sound remotely reminiscent of anything you've recently heard on the news? No wonder people are pissed. Goddam wealthy barstewards. We're entitled! Wealth is not a right but a decent free education and access to free health treatment etc is a basic right. It is morally justifiable for those with to pay for those who are have nots. You will say that nothing is free and has to be paid for by someone . In a fair society those who have should pay more than those who have not. Without tax the idea of a fair society would be impossible because it is human nature to look after ourselves not our neighbours. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by EMR
(Post 11573902)
Wealth is not a right but a decent free education and access to free health treatment etc is a basic right.
It is morally justifiable for those with to pay for those who are have nots. You will say that nothing is free and has to be paid for by someone . In a fair society those who have should pay more than those who have not. Without tax the idea of a fair society would be impossible because it is human nature to look after ourselves not our neighbours. The difference, is that they believe you have to earn it, whilst you believe it is an entitlement. OK, you are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else. But in the end, somebody still has to pay for it. We are incrementally living with less and paying more for it. Yet you suggest we should enhance that condition with even more spending of what we don't have. Because it's "fairer". We are "entitled", after all. Perhaps it's fairer that we are all poorer together. I just don't fancy being poor, and I'd prefer to have the opportunity to earn it, rather than waiting for my entitlements (which frankly doesn't look too good at present). I doubt many others do either. In fact, right now, there are quite a few Europeans complaining about exactly that - and rightfully so. Just for the record, it's worth pointing out that there is a "free" education system in the US not unlike anywhere else, grants pay for millions of people's higher education - especially when students exhibit that they earn it by keeping a high grade point average, and healthcare is now available to everyone. But yes, those who earn more, get more. Somehow I think that's fair, too. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
There is no way anyone in their right mind would want to swop the US systems for what we have in most of Europe.
If we are taxed more then it is a price worth paying. If we had a system where everyone from the employed on a decent living wage to the multimillionaire both paid the same % of their incomes in tax I do not know of anyone who would complain. What each did with their remaining disposable incomes would be up to then. But that is not the case and never will be while their is an industry that provides tax evasion/avoidance to those who can afford to pay for it. Please can anyone tell me what is wrong with the employed person who earns £30,000 year paying lets say 30% on his income in tax and forcing someone like Bernie Eccleston or Green ( topshop ) into the same % of their earnings to the UK exchequer ?? If you reduced the tax bill of the employed to 5% the Greens etc of this world would try to avoid paying even as little as that. Its human nature . |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Maybe you've been on another planet for the past 6 years or so.
Erm, Europe is in deep shit, and has been for about 7 years now. And the prognosis does not look good. You might want to study up on that. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by amideislas
(Post 11573934)
Please, I certainly do not stand against education, healthcare, or any of those things. I certainly don't believe there should be no tax - you're putting words in my mouth.
The difference, is that they believe you have to earn it, whilst you believe it is an entitlement. OK, you are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else. But in the end, somebody still has to pay for it. We are incrementally living with less and paying more for it. Yet you suggest we should enhance that condition with even more spending of what we don't have. Because it's "fairer". We are "entitled", after all. Perhaps it's fairer that we are all poorer together. I just don't fancy being poor, and I'd prefer to have the opportunity to earn it, rather than waiting for my entitlements (which frankly doesn't look too good at present). I doubt many others do either. In fact, right now, there are quite a few Europeans complaining about exactly that - and rightfully so. Just for the record, it's worth pointing out that there is a "free" education system in the US not unlike anywhere else, grants pay for millions of people's higher education - especially when students exhibit that they earn it by keeping a high grade point average, and healthcare is now available to everyone. But yes, those who earn more, get more. Somehow I think that's fair, too. Nobody said you stand against 'education, healthcare, or any of those things' and I don't think anyone has said 'we should enhance that condition with even more spending of what we don't have'. You are fighting straw men. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by amideislas
(Post 11573984)
Maybe you've been on another planet for the past 6 years or so.
Erm, Europe is in deep shit, and has been for about 7 years now. And the prognosis does not look good. You might want to study up on that. Those employed and paying the higher rates of tx are even more unfairly treated compared to the Greens, Ecclestone, Mittals etc. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by EMR
(Post 11573993)
Do you accept that the tax bill should be fair and that whoever you are, however much you earn that everyone should pay the same % , that being the basic rate of tax ??
Those employed and paying the higher rates of tx are even more unfairly treated compared to the Greens, Ecclestone, Mittals etc. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by amideislas
(Post 11574066)
That's not been a part of the debate so far, but are you suggesting a flat tax? Yes, I might be favourable to that idea, yes.
Turkeys do not vote for christmas. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by jimenato
(Post 11573985)
Blimey - who's putting words into whose mouth?
Nobody said you stand against 'education, healthcare, or any of those things' and I don't think anyone has said 'we should enhance that condition with even more spending of what we don't have'. You are fighting straw men. And through the entire discussion he's been advocating increased spending at a time when we can least afford it.
Originally Posted by EMR
(Post 11573902)
Without tax the idea of a fair society would be impossible because it is human nature to look after ourselves not our neighbours.
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Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by EMR
(Post 11574068)
I thought that you would agree to that but the price would be the end of the tax evasion/avoidance industry and the closure of tax havens.
Turkeys do not vote for christmas. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by amideislas
(Post 11574075)
This is getting nonsensical now. Have a good evening. Try to hold back on the sherry.
Therefore the only alternative is increasing legislation and control. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
The "wealth distribution" model, which aspires to "equalize" wealth across the masses, actually does precisely that.
It creates a regulated "homogenous working class", that exhibits a narrow wealth gap amongst itself, overseen and managed by a paternal state, which in return, transfers the burden of responsibility for individual well-being from the masses that serve and fund the state, to the state which oversees it. Most importantly, the model also serves to create a ruling class, effectively the regulator of wealth and the distribution of it to the working class. As a testament to our success in achieving precisely that "wealth distribution" model, our current EC president is properly amongst the most experienced in precisely the "wealth management" this model requires: Juncker defends Luxembourg tax arrangements as legal Luxembourg tax files: Juncker ‘solved problems’ for Amazon move And as some suggest as a solution, more unaccountable spending of tax revenue extracted from the working class does indeed appear to be favoured wisdom amongst the ruling class: The scandal of Europe’s ever-expanding budget In concert with that, an interesting viewpoint: Over-taxed, over-regulated, over-watched: Under-represented EUROPE: Democracy is neither an American monopoly for export, nor a British privilege. It is an Athenian invention and is well described by Pericles in 430 BC, in his epitaph speech delivered at the Keramikos cemetery in honor of the first dead in the Peloponnesian war. The original concept of democracy was based on the direct vote of all eligible (adult males) Athenian citizens who gathered at Pnyka, a hill next to the Acropolis of Athens and voted for each and every issue of common concern. If Europe were a direct democracy of the aforementioned type (which is not impossible to structure in the age of e-government), citizens would not be over-taxed, over-regulated or over-watched. Indeed it is these three ‘overs’ that have gradually frustrated our societies, developing a potential danger for incidents of unpredictable and uncontrolled social unrest. Indeed, in a Europe of direct democracy, the administrations at national and EU level, would be reduced in size, and in the direct service of the citizens. Furthermore, government/state services would be tailored to the real needs of societies and citizens, and operate effectively and efficiently. Citizens able to vote directly, would be voting for their interests and not for the interests of the financial speculators supporting their elected representatives. This, however, practically cannot be currently done (except perhaps for the Swiss model). If the mainstream parties leading and ruling Europe don’t start to clean up their houses, the current trends could evolve into an entirely new beast. The distance between a capital-D-Democracy and a pseudo democratic parliamentary dictatorship is not great. We have come to live in a world where representative democracy means representation of stakeholders yielding the biggest influence. This is not how representative democracy was imagined. Indeed political leaders are meant to represent their citizens, not their sponsors or even friends. However, it is incredible, how incredulous any modern attempts at fighting against corruption, coercion, or capital persuasion is. Indeed the fresh “breeze of democracy” blows from the extremes of Left and Right. While the extremes may be on the rise in the last few years, their populist rhetoric has so far proven to consist of nothing more than words. Naturally, while on a European level parties advocating the rights of the people from between the centre-left to centre-right on the political spectrum, would most of the time vote along the lines of the EPP or PES, ALDE or even ECR, any new breed of EU political party/ies should remain out of the established clientelistic system that currently reigns. Where we ask, can we find a mainstream party to fight for the rights of the mainstream? Because if the mainstream parties leading and ruling Europe don’t start to clean up their houses, the current trends could evolve into an entirely new beast. Be prepared to either be consumed by the political extremes, or, preferably, be cast aside by new, transparent, entities that embody the values of direct democracy. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
You are not suggesting are you that we should return to the days of low tax and regulation .
Where is your evidence that in those times "wealth " trickled down and that the population was better off than it is today. I look forward to your posts but sometimes I think that if this were mid victorian times your stance would be that raising the age at which children could work to 14, removing children from the mines etc was unecessary involvement by Government in practices which are legal and improve the profitabilty of companies. The trickle down theory is just as much of a pipe dream as the social state where all are equal and everyone is treated fairly. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Behind Europe’s War on Low Taxes
The reality of being a small country on the edge of Europe, with no land bridge to the Continent, is that without tax competition Ireland is not an attractive place to locate a European headquarters. It seems to have occurred to nobody in power in a major European economy that instead of effectively banning the Irish policy, it would be simpler to simply replicate it. After all, if Ireland can do it, so, surely, can the Germans. With added efficiency. It is an unusual and troubling development that the response to the most spectacularly successful corporate-tax regime in Europe has been to seek its demise. Indeed, what Europe needs more than anything is increased competition and economic vibrancy. The high-tax model that has dominated European political and economic thought since World War II is sailing into choppy waters. With a pensions crisis looming, an economy that gastropods would call sluggish and few, if any, obvious solutions, the answer is not to harmonize further. It is to encourage innovation. The EU may have a case about Apple and Ireland as it relates to transparency, and certainly, any special deals and state aid in that case should be as widely reviled and denounced as any of the bank bailouts of recent years. To pretend, however, that this investigation is about a single case is as naive as to believe that the EU ever intended to ratify its guarantees to Ireland in 2009. The probe into Dublin’s deal with Apple is about the desire of European politicians to break faith with competition in the name of envy and greed. Ireland’s capitulation to that pressure this week is one more milestone on the road to permanent European stagnation. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
European Statism Proves Why Big Government Doesn’t Work
“France, Germany and Italy have joined forces to outlaw tax competition between EU countries in a letter to the European Commission. …the language and tone in the joint letter to the new Economic and Taxation Commissioner, Pierre Moscovici, is much more aggressive than in the past. …the letter from the finance ministers of the eurozone’s three largest economies says that ‘the lack of tax harmonisation in the European Union is one of the main causes allowing aggressive tax planning, base erosion and profit-shifting to develop.’ …Vanessa Mock, commission spokeswoman said Mr Moscovici ‘welcomes these significant contributions to the work being carried out by the commission.’” And here are the most recent numbers from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), showing “average individual consumption” <REF: Net national income per capita> for various member nations of that international bureaucracy. The average for all OECD nations is 100, and the average for eurozone nations is 96, so the U.S. score of 147... The only nations that are even close to the United States have oil (like Norway) or are low-tax international financial centers (such as Luxembourg and Switzerland). |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by amideislas
(Post 11574660)
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/wp...us-500x331.png
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/...51_634x397.jpg Why has Europe's economy done worse than the US? Two-Speed Recovery: US vs. EU U.S. Economy Stays Afloat As Europe Sinks Into Recession The Eurozone's 'Winner-Take-All' Political Economy: Institutional Choices, Widening Inequality, and Returning North-South Gap Redistribution policies at the root of the Eurozone Crisis I will ask our friends and their contemporaries if they believe that it is the land of milk and honey. If those living on welfare in trailer parks and basic shacks are benefitting from the trickle down theory. If they agree that the US economy is forging ahead of the EU,s. Looking at official US goverment figures the last increase in mean incomes was 2007, in some racial groups longer than that. There are also wide racial and regional differences in mean incomes , level so poverty etc. UNICEF 2013 the US has the second highest levels of child poverty in the developed world/ 2012 US official figures over 20% of children live beow the poverty standards My point is simply this we can all trade figures to prove our own viewpoint or disprove anothers. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Well, the figures speak for themselves.
Anyway, I think it's very honourable of you to make a charitable "slum" visit, just to verify that your notions of trailer parks and abject poverty are really as bad as you want to believe. Good job we pay lots of tax to prevent Europeans from ever being subjected to that kind of poverty. Just out of curiosity, where is it that you will be visiting? Here? http://www.west-info.eu/files/11.01....BLD_Online.jpg or here? http://www.mo-berlin.com/wp-content/...-Postillon.jpg or here? http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/wp-c...storyimage.jpg or here? http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...t-in-paris.jpg or here? http://assets2.neurope.eu/sites/defa...4dbf1cd3f1c4b0 or here? http://www.puglialife.com/uploads/4f...a4d81043fc.jpg |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by amideislas
(Post 11574850)
Well, the figures speak for themselves.
Anyway, I think it's very honourable of you to make a charitable "slum" visit, just to verify that your notions of trailer parks and abject poverty are really as bad as you want to believe. Good job we pay lots of tax to prevent Europeans from ever being subjected to that kind of poverty. Just out of curiosity, where is it that you will be visiting? Here? http://www.west-info.eu/files/11.01....BLD_Online.jpg or here? http://www.mo-berlin.com/wp-content/...-Postillon.jpg or here? http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/wp-c...storyimage.jpg or here? http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...t-in-paris.jpg or here? http://assets2.neurope.eu/sites/defa...4dbf1cd3f1c4b0 or here? http://www.puglialife.com/uploads/4f...a4d81043fc.jpg I agree the figures from the US government regarding incomes and poverty levels do speak for themselves. No doubt you will now say that the US government has got it wrong . I am sure those I will be meeting and speaking to next month will appreciate being referred to a slum dwellers. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by EMR
(Post 11574794)
UNICEF 2013 the US has the second highest levels of child poverty in the developed world/
2012 US official figures over 20% of children live beow the poverty standards My point is simply this we can all trade figures to prove our own viewpoint or disprove anothers. A new report by the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) shows that 2.6 million children have sunk below the poverty line in the world’s most affluent countries since the crisis fist broke in 2008, bringing the total number of children in the developed world living in poverty to an estimated 76.5 million. In 23 of the 41 affluent countries analysed, child poverty has increased since 2008. In Ireland, Croatia, Latvia, Greece and Iceland, rates rose by over 50%. In Greece, 2012 median household incomes for families with children sank to 1998 levels – the equivalent of a loss of 14 years of income progress. By this measure Ireland, Luxembourg and Spain lost a decade; Iceland lost 9 years; and Italy, Hungary and Portugal lost 8. The recession has hit 15-24 year olds especially hard, with the number of NEETs ("Not in Education, Employment, or Training") rising dramatically in many countries. In the European Union 7.5 million young people (almost equivalent to the population of Switzerland) were classified as NEET in 2013. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Have a nice trip.
|
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
There is a big difference to being a " Neet " to a child living in poverty. US government figures also showed that Hispanic and Black incomes had also declined in one case to 1999 levels. As I said you can post your figures and others will post theirs from US government statistics such as the census etc, Where did yours come from.? |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Originally Posted by EMR
(Post 11574888)
US government figures also showed that Hispanic and Black incomes had also declined in one case to 1999 levels. http://www.whatthefeed.com/wp-conten...-tolerance.jpg
Originally Posted by EMR
(Post 11574888)
Where did yours come from.?
But no doubt they are wrong, too. They must be. After all, we pay lots of tax to prevent things like this. And as you point out, that's what distinguishes us from those impoverished Americans. But if Unicef isn't good enough, how about the WHO? (JFYI: I don't mean Roger Daltrey and Pete Townsend) Rising numbers of children living in poverty across Europe “The number of children living in relative poverty is rapidly growing in all Member States. This directly affects their health and well-being by leading to ill health, shorter life expectancy and lack of opportunities in adulthood. We owe it to our children to give them the best start in life, and to allow them to live healthy and safe lives until they reach adulthood,” says Zsuzsanna Jakab, WHO Regional Director for Europe. Rapidly increasing inequality in every Member State The European Region includes not only countries with the lowest number of infant and child deaths in the world but also those where children are 25 times more likely to die before age 5. In addition, mortality varies not only between but within countries. Child poverty is a risk factor for poor health even in high-income countries, and inequality is growing. More than half of deaths among children aged under 5 years result from diseases that simple, affordable, proven measures can prevent or treat. Each year, almost 1 million children in the Region do not receive all their scheduled vaccinations, resulting in 90 000 cases of measles and 70 000 cases of rubella being reported in the past three years. |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
So you do agree that the Unicef and US government figures etc etc are correct and that the US is not Narnia and is no better in some things or no worse in others than the rest of developed world.
Where did rascism come into it, the difference incomes for differet ethnic groups relates to levels of education,living standards, job opportunities. Where we are going is a large majority white area and has some of the poorest in the US, a situation that has existed since statistics were collected. Is race a reason for their economic condition ?? |
Re: Tax avoidence/evasion
Not at all.
In fact, so far, it is >you< that has vigorously argued how our system is so much better, and justifies the high taxation and other burdens we are subjected to. Yet Europe isn't Narnia either, is it? In fact, it's failing before our very eyes, unlike others who manage more sensibly, and are demonstrably growing. My argument is that we don't have it better, and in fact, it's all unsustainable, and has been for a long time. So, you may argue that more of the same is the way forward, but I argue that until we put our arses back to work and start seriously earning rather than consuming our "entitlements", the credit card will eventually be declined. And so far, both the numbers and the consequences are pretty clear, as I have illustrated with reality, not the idealism you subscribe to. |
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