Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > Europe > Spain
Reload this Page >

Single Market and WA questions

Single Market and WA questions

Thread Tools
 
Old Jan 18th 2020, 9:55 am
  #1  
Just Joined
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 6
peligroraton is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Single Market and WA questions

Hi guys

I joined here as I am struggling to find the answers to some basic questions and google is not helping me. I am a UK citizen, a Spanish resident. I have my green residencia card and registered on the PAdron

First
Which government department or Minister is responsible for the rights and well being British expats living in the EU? I can only find google links to immigration to the UK not emmigration from it.

Second - and this is really confusing me
The single market consists of four parts - the freedom of movement of goods services perople and capital, right?
The four elements of the single market are indivisible - The EU say you can't have free movement of goods without free movement of people

Given the above and the fact I am a self employed resident in the EU does the single market still apply to me after brexit? As I understand it, I live in the single market. I provide goods and services to other EU countries as my livelyhood here. But how can I be operating a business the single market unless freedom of movement also applies to me? To put this in a more basic way, can I legally buy an item from Germany on ebay as a British expat living in Spain post brexit?

Third
I live in the shengen zone. I don't need a passport to fly from here on a domestic flight to mainland spain, then get a train and wander freely all around the EU shengen zone. No one would even know I was there. How does that work?

Very confused
Richard

I'm very confused

peligroraton is offline  
Old Jan 18th 2020, 1:05 pm
  #2  
Just Joined
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 6
peligroraton is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

Sorry didn't have time to post my other question earlier as I had to go to see some customers

Just to clarify my example from Q2 above. I meant to say

As an British expat and registered in Spain as Autonomo (self employed person) Can I legally buy an item from Germany on ebay and then sell it to a customer in Italy, post brexit?

Question 4
My Mum and Dad are in their 80s and live in the UK. My Dad has dementia and would not be capable of living independently without my Mum to support him. If I lose my Mum what are my options to care for my Dad post brexit?

Currently he could come to live with me here where I can care for him.

A. Does the UK government withdrawal agreement/negotiation intend to ensure that is still the case post Brexit?
B. Does the UK government prefer that I am forced to move to the UK where I have no home and no income and expect me to live off benefits and care for my dad that way?
C. Does the UK government intend to create a situation where I am unable to do either A or B and therefore make it impossible for me to care for my Dad at all?
D. None of the above?

OK that's it for now. Simple enough questions but google couldn't answer them, and niether could my missus lol

Last edited by peligroraton; Jan 18th 2020 at 1:08 pm.
peligroraton is offline  
Old Jan 18th 2020, 1:49 pm
  #3  
Concierge
 
mikelincs's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: ex ex-pat, in Taunton
Posts: 27,216
mikelincs has a reputation beyond reputemikelincs has a reputation beyond reputemikelincs has a reputation beyond reputemikelincs has a reputation beyond reputemikelincs has a reputation beyond reputemikelincs has a reputation beyond reputemikelincs has a reputation beyond reputemikelincs has a reputation beyond reputemikelincs has a reputation beyond reputemikelincs has a reputation beyond reputemikelincs has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

Originally Posted by peligroraton
Sorry didn't have time to post my other question earlier as I had to go to see some customers

Just to clarify my example from Q2 above. I meant to say

As an British expat and registered in Spain as Autonomo (self employed person) Can I legally buy an item from Germany on ebay and then sell it to a customer in Italy, post brexit?

Question 4
My Mum and Dad are in their 80s and live in the UK. My Dad has dementia and would not be capable of living independently without my Mum to support him. If I lose my Mum what are my options to care for my Dad post brexit?

Currently he could come to live with me here where I can care for him.

A. Does the UK government withdrawal agreement/negotiation intend to ensure that is still the case post Brexit?
B. Does the UK government prefer that I am forced to move to the UK where I have no home and no income and expect me to live off benefits and care for my dad that way?
C. Does the UK government intend to create a situation where I am unable to do either A or B and therefore make it impossible for me to care for my Dad at all?
D. None of the above?

OK that's it for now. Simple enough questions but google couldn't answer them, and niether could my missus lol
They may be simple enough questions, but, at the moment, no one really knows, and I suspect the British Government doesn't, it is currently debating a much changed WA to the one the EU agreed, and it's quite possible that the EU will NOT agree to it having already said that they would not renegotiate, and that is what the Tories want, so many of the so-called red lines seem to have been removed by them, the spectre of a no deal Brexit looks ever nearer.

Moving back to the UK is OK, but many benefits would be unavailable to you for several months.
mikelincs is offline  
Old Jan 18th 2020, 2:24 pm
  #4  
Just Joined
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 6
peligroraton is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

OK Thanks for the answer though it answers nothing lol. Surely if I as a layman can think of these questions, the 'experts' who are negotiating this already did?

Can anyone at least give some clarification on this one

Second - and this is really confusing me
The single market consists of four parts - the freedom of movement of goods services perople and capital, right?
The four elements of the single market are indivisible - The EU say you can't have free movement of goods without free movement of people

Given the above and the fact I am a self employed resident in the EU does the single market still apply to me after brexit? As I understand it, I live within the single market area. I provide goods and services to other EU countries as my livelihood here. But how can I be operating a business offering goods/services in the single market unless freedom of movement also applies to me?


It's like a paradox wrapped in an enigma to me but surely someone has worked out this problem. Assuming nothing else changes what does the current WA say regards this?


What about Q1. Which minister/government department is responsible for these matters? So I can ask them.

On moving back to the UK by the way, I would only do that if I was forced to in order to look after my dad and even then I would then worry if I could return and rebuild my life here afterwards. I never want to willingly move back there after all that is happening.

Last edited by peligroraton; Jan 18th 2020 at 2:29 pm.
peligroraton is offline  
Old Jan 18th 2020, 4:47 pm
  #5  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,624
bobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

The current Brexit Minister is Stephen Barclay, that's where I would start.
bobd22 is offline  
Old Jan 18th 2020, 6:05 pm
  #6  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 5,254
EuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

Who knows! But here's my twopenn'orth, for what it's worth (probably worth three ha'porth).
Which government department or Minister is responsible for the rights and well being British expats living in the EU? I can only find google links to immigration to the UK not emmigration from it.
Nobody. You don't live in the UK so it gives not one toss about you. The only rights it will give you is what the EU insists it signs up to in the WA. Beyond that, Spain is responsible for the rights and well being of its residents.

The single market consists of four parts - the freedom of movement of goods services perople and capital, right?

The four elements of the single market are indivisible - The EU say you can't have free movement of goods without free movement of people

Given the above and the fact I am a self employed resident in the EU does the single market still apply to me after brexit? As I understand it, I live in the single market. I provide goods and services to other EU countries as my livelyhood here. But how can I be operating a business the single market unless freedom of movement also applies to me? To put this in a more basic way, can I legally buy an item from Germany on ebay as a British expat living in Spain post brexit?

Your business is registered in Spain, is it not? So my interpretation is (I have the same question re being in France), your business still has FoM as a Spanish business just like any other Spanish business even if you personally don't. Could well be wrong but I like my interpretation.

I live in the shengen zone. I don't need a passport to fly from here on a domestic flight to mainland spain, then get a train and wander freely all around the EU shengen zone. No one would even know I was there. How does that work?
Not sure what you're getting at. Yes you can wander all round Schengen, just like Brits and other EU citizens can currently overstay their three months as a visitor in any EU country they fancy. It's no skin off anyone's nose long as you're just there as a visitor so nobody bothers. But you wouldn't be able to get a job there or claim benefits or anything because you wouldn't have the right to work or any legal status except visitor.
Re your dad, there is a thing called family reunification. Have a google.
Hope this helps but don't put too much faith in any of it, blind leading the blind.
EuroTrash is offline  
Old Jan 18th 2020, 8:05 pm
  #7  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Jun 2017
Location: Alicante
Posts: 928
Notdunroamin has a reputation beyond reputeNotdunroamin has a reputation beyond reputeNotdunroamin has a reputation beyond reputeNotdunroamin has a reputation beyond reputeNotdunroamin has a reputation beyond reputeNotdunroamin has a reputation beyond reputeNotdunroamin has a reputation beyond reputeNotdunroamin has a reputation beyond reputeNotdunroamin has a reputation beyond reputeNotdunroamin has a reputation beyond reputeNotdunroamin has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
You don't live in the UK so it gives not one toss about you.
About sums it up!

Same for your dad, to the UK government he is a useless drain on resources, as are all pensioners be they living there or elsewhere.

If anybody really cared then citizens rights would have been thoroughly thrashed out, implemented, and ring fenced, BEFORE any other negotiations even began. They also had the option of creating a status of "EU citizen" which would have insulated us from the whole Brexit debacle and the fact they didn't speaks volumes.

TBH if it comes to the crunch I expect more empathy and consideration from Spain than I do UK.
​​​​
​​​
Notdunroamin is offline  
Old Jan 18th 2020, 8:54 pm
  #8  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,624
bobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond reputebobd22 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

Originally Posted by Notdunroamin
About sums it up!

Same for your dad, to the UK government he is a useless drain on resources, as are all pensioners be they living there or elsewhere.

If anybody really cared then citizens rights would have been thoroughly thrashed out, implemented, and ring fenced, BEFORE any other negotiations even began. They also had the option of creating a status of "EU citizen" which would have insulated us from the whole Brexit debacle and the fact they didn't speaks volumes.

TBH if it comes to the crunch I expect more empathy and consideration from Spain than I do UK.
​​​​
​​​
Sadly I believe you are 100% correct
bobd22 is offline  
Old Jan 19th 2020, 12:52 am
  #9  
 
BritInParis's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Not in Paris
Posts: 18,194
BritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

Not sure why you are looking to the UK for all your answers. You live in Spain so Spain decides what rule and regulations applies to you, your family and business. Overlaying that currently are your rights as an EU citizen which will fall away at the end of 2020 but since Spain isn't leaving the EU none of your questions are relevant bar the ones concerning your father as FOM for British citizens within the EU will be ending. At that point Spain will decide whether he will be able to join you from 2021 onwards, not the UK.
BritInParis is online now  
Old Jan 19th 2020, 6:57 am
  #10  
 
Casa Santo Estevo's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Galicia
Posts: 3,140
Casa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

The OP has fortunately given us a lot of information. One thing is missing is where is the business they run registered or based? Paying personal taxes in Spain doe not automatically mean the business does.
Some social media links that might be useful.
https://twitter.com/BritsliveSpain
https://www.facebook.com/BritsInSpain/
and a website.
https://www.gov.uk/world/spain
Casa Santo Estevo is offline  
Old Jan 19th 2020, 10:07 am
  #11  
Just Joined
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 6
peligroraton is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
Who knows! But here's my twopenn'orth, for what it's worth (probably worth three ha'porth).
Which government department or Minister is responsible for the rights and well being British expats living in the EU? I can only find google links to immigration to the UK not emmigration from it.
Nobody. You don't live in the UK so it gives not one toss about you. The only rights it will give you is what the EU insists it signs up to in the WA. Beyond that, Spain is responsible for the rights and well being of its residents.




Your business is registered in Spain, is it not? So my interpretation is (I have the same question re being in France), your business still has FoM as a Spanish business just like any other Spanish business even if you personally don't. Could well be wrong but I like my interpretation.

I live in the shengen zone. I don't need a passport to fly from here on a domestic flight to mainland spain, then get a train and wander freely all around the EU shengen zone. No one would even know I was there. How does that work?
Not sure what you're getting at. Yes you can wander all round Schengen, just like Brits and other EU citizens can currently overstay their three months as a visitor in any EU country they fancy. It's no skin off anyone's nose long as you're just there as a visitor so nobody bothers. But you wouldn't be able to get a job there or claim benefits or anything because you wouldn't have the right to work or any legal status except visitor.
1. So Spain is responsible for my rights inc FOM, not the UK government and not the EU?

2. I would agree with that interpretation if my business was a spanish registered limited company (or SL here) but it isn't. An SL is a 'body' in it's own right with legally defined rights, obligations and identity. I am a self employed 'autonomo'. My business is not a 'company' so it does not have an identification number (CIF here in the Canary Islands, I'm not sure what it is called on La Peninsula). When I make out a Factura or pay duty on something I import or get a receipt for goods purchased here, or pay may taxes and social security I have to use my NIE (again not sure what that is called on La Peninsula) which is my personal identification number. My business bank account is my personal bank account and if it did have it's own bank account it would be something equivalent to 'a person trading as ....' and that bank account would be opened using my NIE. So my business and myself are legally the same entity. This is why I am asking the question of what happens post brexit for a self employed person resident in Spain who trades across the entire EU.

3. Let me give a good example of what I am trying to understand with my question regards movement in the Shengen zone post brexit. This example is not actually what I do but it is a close enough analogy and easy to understand. Let's say I am a self employed person resident in (but not a citizen of) Spain and an expert on computer networks and cyber security. I get a contract from a company in Germany to fix their network problems. I do as much as I can remotely via VPN connecting to their network from my office here but can not fix it that way. So I get on a flight to Madrid (I don't even need a passport as it is domestic flight) and then get the train to Germany, book a hotel and spend four weeks working on their network security before collecting a nice payment into my Spanish account and return to the Canaries via Madrid. That is why I am asking about can I freely wander around Shengen because i am based in Shengen and operate a a 'business' within Shengen.

With that clarification of my questions, what is the answer now?

Last edited by peligroraton; Jan 19th 2020 at 10:11 am.
peligroraton is offline  
Old Jan 19th 2020, 10:32 am
  #12  
Concierge
 
spouse of scouse's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 21,139
spouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

Originally Posted by BritInParis
Not sure why you are looking to the UK for all your answers. You live in Spain so Spain decides what rule and regulations applies to you, your family and business. Overlaying that currently are your rights as an EU citizen which will fall away at the end of 2020 but since Spain isn't leaving the EU none of your questions are relevant bar the ones concerning your father as FOM for British citizens within the EU will be ending. At that point Spain will decide whether he will be able to join you from 2021 onwards, not the UK.
spouse of scouse is offline  
Old Jan 19th 2020, 10:44 am
  #13  
 
Fred James's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Granada Costa
Posts: 10,902
Fred James has a reputation beyond reputeFred James has a reputation beyond reputeFred James has a reputation beyond reputeFred James has a reputation beyond reputeFred James has a reputation beyond reputeFred James has a reputation beyond reputeFred James has a reputation beyond reputeFred James has a reputation beyond reputeFred James has a reputation beyond reputeFred James has a reputation beyond reputeFred James has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

Originally Posted by peligroraton
1. So Spain is responsible for my rights inc FOM, not the UK government and not the EU?

2. I would agree with that interpretation if my business was a spanish registered limited company (or SL here) but it isn't. An SL is a 'body' in it's own right with legally defined rights, obligations and identity. I am a self employed 'autonomo'. My business is not a 'company' so it does not have an identification number (CIF here in the Canary Islands, I'm not sure what it is called on La Peninsula). When I make out a Factura or pay duty on something I import or get a receipt for goods purchased here, or pay may taxes and social security I have to use my NIE (again not sure what that is called on La Peninsula) which is my personal identification number. My business bank account is my personal bank account and if it did have it's own bank account it would be something equivalent to 'a person trading as ....' and that bank account would be opened using my NIE. So my business and myself are legally the same entity. This is why I am asking the question of what happens post brexit for a self employed person resident in Spain who trades across the entire EU.

3. Let me give a good example of what I am trying to understand with my question regards movement in the Shengen zone post brexit. This example is not actually what I do but it is a close enough analogy and easy to understand. Let's say I am a self employed person resident in (but not a citizen of) Spain and an expert on computer networks and cyber security. I get a contract from a company in Germany to fix their network problems. I do as much as I can remotely via VPN connecting to their network from my office here but can not fix it that way. So I get on a flight to Madrid (I don't even need a passport as it is domestic flight) and then get the train to Germany, book a hotel and spend four weeks working on their network security before collecting a nice payment into my Spanish account and return to the Canaries via Madrid. That is why I am asking about can I freely wander around Shengen because i am based in Shengen and operate a a 'business' within Shengen.

With that clarification of my questions, what is the answer now?
If you are resident in Spain, you are free to travel within the Schengen area with your UK passport and proof of Spanish residency, which would be either the green registration document or your TIE card when you get it. The usual Schengen rules apply in that you cannot spend more than 90 days in the Shengen area within any 180 day period.
Fred James is offline  
Old Jan 19th 2020, 11:10 am
  #14  
Just Joined
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 6
peligroraton is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

Thanks for that info. I have the green Residencia card. Not sure about a TIE card. I think in the Canary Islands some of our documents have different names to mainland Spain. I googled TIE Spain and it sounds like it's analogous to my NIE which I do have.
peligroraton is offline  
Old Jan 19th 2020, 3:18 pm
  #15  
 
Casa Santo Estevo's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Galicia
Posts: 3,140
Casa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond reputeCasa Santo Estevo has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Single Market and WA questions

Replying to this:
Single Market and WA questions
Remember IANAL The same with everyone here.
1. So Spain is responsible for my rights inc FOM, not the UK government and not the EU?
1-Yes Spain is responsible. The EU have always said that it is down to each country how they treat the British living in that country. I expect this will be messy. But we have to wait until the details are out.
2 - Thank you for confirming how your business is run. If it had been a British based then no doubt things could be be far more complicated. Given what you have written I cannot imagine there would be any changes.
3- This is like I said is going to get messy. It is rumoured that to take a vacation Brits may need a visa. The easiest way is to use the system the same as other counties in Schengen area. But again we do not exactly know what is going to be put in place. That visa will not allow anyone from outside of the zone to work. Hopefully having permission to stay and live in Spain will still allow you to work. Seeing as you actually travel to undertake some work in countries other than Spain I can now see why you have concerns. If it was purely importing and exporting then maybe things will be much more easy for you.
For others that do not understand what the Schengen area please read the link below. Remember that the EU and Schengen areas do not cover the same counties.
Wiki for Schengen area
Casa Santo Estevo is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.