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Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
(Post 11189155)
Well Stevie definitely didn't see it, so it was probably all a figment of someones wild imagination. :cool:
http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2014/03/...26_320507.html |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by chopera
(Post 11189064)
The problem is that nobody who was there says they saw anything. Apparently it did kick off near the PP HQ after the demonstration was over and most people had already left.
It has been on all the news and in the papers too and still is today
Originally Posted by amideislas
(Post 11189539)
You're lucky then.
Over here it's a running joke. Expats (especially Germans, who have a sort of religious view of cars) move here with their new Audi's and Mercs... Within a year, they've been sold off in favour of an old Golf or Fiesta. To be fair, old Defenders have become pretty popular, as they are virtually indestructible. There's also the threat of being accused of being "rich" if you exhibit a new car. Who knows could be many reasons. I also see so many late nice motors with major dents and or scratches on, |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by andyrich666
(Post 11189571)
maybe like me they are just worried it will be siezed, maybe the cost of keeping the cars serviced is too much, maybe they have lost the 'keeping up with the jones' syndrome once they settle. Who knows could be many reasons. I also see so many late nice motors with major dents and or scratches on, The point is that if expats were indeed "rich" like amideislas says, then they would buy a nice new car anyway. Even if you get the odd dint then you can afford to get it fix. If you have a lot of money then you are not going to drive around all sweaty and uncomfortable in an old banger From the 3 years I spent on the CDS, I would say that the British people who lived there had about the same amount of money as the Andalucians they lived with, some had less, some more Up here, it is a different matter regarding cars. Oviedo is full of BMWs and Audis. And I must have seen a dozen Porsche Panameras here, and there is barely a dint in sight |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by andyrich666
(Post 11189571)
Who is nobody ?
It has been on all the news and in the papers too and still is today |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe
(Post 11189575)
Chopera was referring to the fact that no-one at the organised demo (which was day-time) saw the violence. I did look at your youtube clip, and it was obviously a night-time incident by hooligans. You'll see worse unfortunately if you go and watch Man U - Liverpool or Chelsea - West Ham. Or even Sevilla- Betis if what I've been told is correct.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater about 1m.16s is quite funny |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by agoreira
(Post 11188946)
I change my cars every 2 years in UK, and every one I have traded in has been in immaculate condition, but given the pathetic driving standards in Spain if I ever moved there, I'd be driving an old banger as well.;)
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/0...A2H0N020140318 Sales grew 17.8 percent in Spain, 40.2 percent in Portugal and 20.6 percent in Ireland, signalling that a fragile recovery in the region was gaining strength. In Italy, the region's fourth-biggest market, sales grew 8.6 percent as the country recovers from its longest recession in 70 years. |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 11189574)
Yes of course
The point is that if expats were indeed "rich" like amideislas says, then they would buy a nice new car anyway. Even if you get the odd dint then you can afford to get it fix. If you have a lot of money then you are not going to drive around all sweaty and uncomfortable in an old banger From the 3 years I spent on the CDS, I would say that the British people who lived there had about the same amount of money as the Andalucians they lived with, some had less, some more Up here, it is a different matter regarding cars. Oviedo is full of BMWs and Audis. And I must have seen a dozen Porsche Panameras here, and there is barely a dint in sight The reason this debate turned this way is that someone suggested that those leaving the UK to seek a better life were somehow the same as those leaving Spain to seek jobs. I was only pointing out the difference in their motivation. It was you who implied I said British expats are rich. No doubt there are expats in Spain who have a limited budget, but that's not the same as those who leave Spain in search of a job. |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by amideislas
(Post 11189590)
It was you who has suggested that anyone who has a nice car or can pay the rent is somehow wealthy. I only pointed out that such things are relative. Compared to struggling Spanish, you may well be right - relatively.
The reason this debate turned this way is that someone suggested that those leaving the UK to seek a better life were somehow the same as those leaving Spain to seek jobs. I was only pointing out the difference in their motivation. It was you who implied I said British expats are rich. No doubt there are expats in Spain who have a limited budget, but that's not the same as those who leave Spain in search of a job. Most of the Spaniards who go to the UK are in their 20s or early 30s and were living at home with their parents in Spain. So when they go to the UK, they are not risking anything because their parents will of course take them back if it doesnt work out If it does work out, then the ideal solution for most of them would be to come back to Spain in a few years time when (hopefully) the Spanish economy has improved and with a much better CV |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
There are still plenty of rich expats in some areas such as Marbella, Sotogrande, Mallorca etc.
Said this week in the Spanish press that over 4 million Spaniards live on less than 1000 pm. |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe
(Post 11189579)
Just as well the Spanish are now buying more new cars (along with the Portuguese, Irish etc). Just another thing the doomsters don't tell you! ;)
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/0...A2H0N020140318 |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Still the fact that exports are doing so well, tourist numbers are up, and employment is now being created in the Spanish economy are all things to applaud now? I can't really understand the mentality of people who want things to get worse. |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by jackytoo
(Post 11189605)
There are still plenty of rich expats in some areas such as Marbella, Sotogrande, Mallorca etc.
Said this week in the Spanish press that over 4 million Spaniards live on less than 1000 pm. It surprises me that there are only 4 million Spaniards living on 1000pm, I thought it would be more The point I am making is that some very obnoxious British people arrive in Spain and then keep going on about how the Spanish want the "rich guiri's money". Well, firstly, if someone is going to rip you off, it will probably be another Brit, and from what I saw, British people in Spain are not really any richer than the Spanish people they live with If you work in Spain, then you normally have a comfortable life because there are options for cheap rent and living accommodation (unlike in the South East of the UK), and once you retire, pensions are much more generous than UK pensions. Lots of people get 2,500 euros per month on the state pension and then have a private pension on top Crickey, in the winter here, most the old ladies walk around in thousand euro fur coats! |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Of the pensioners I knew on the CDS most averaged 500 to 700 euro pm.
A newspaper article said more or less the same. This thread is getting déjà vu:eek: |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Unfortunately just been on UK news Honda are cutting back shifts and looking to lay people off in Swindon due to exports falling! Not good
|
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe
(Post 11189617)
Yes, there are a lot of positive signs, and I hope to see this good trend continue.
I can't really understand the mentality of people who want things to get worse. If you work in Spain, then you normally have a comfortable life because there are options for cheap rent and living accommodation (unlike in the South East of the UK), and once you retire, pensions are much more generous than UK pensions. Lots of people get 2,500 euros per month on the state pension and then have a private pension on top. Of course it's cheap in an area where there are no jobs and a salary of €600 a month is standard. Go to the cities where jobs are and you'll find rents are higher than most other places across Europe (not England). You say €2500 month state pension (dream on). Even in Germany today every second person has less than €700 per month. |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11189606)
People have always bought cars. Just because this year was great for car sales, doesn't mean it will be better next year.
UK car sales. That was a 10.8% rise on 2012, although the figure is 6% lower than 2007's 2.4 million figure. The 2013 total was boosted by a 23.76% rise in sales in December, marking the 22nd successive month of increases. |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11189641)
. Of course it's cheap in an area where there are no jobs and a salary of €600 a month is standard. Go to the cities where jobs are and you'll find rents are higher than most other places across Europe (not England). You say €2500 month state pension (dream on). Even in Germany today every second person has less than €700 per month.
I recently hired someone to work with me, and the 20 somethings I spoke to wouldnt work for less than 20k per year And to be honest I dont know anyone who earns less than 18k per year. Most earn at least double that - I am talking young professionals And my wife's parents and aunty all have 2,500 euro state pensions. Plus private pensions. It is not unusual |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11189641)
Nobody wants things to get worse but you need to be realistic and talk to people. You can go to any country in the world and you'll find people with money. Fact is that many youngsters don't have a choice (move abroad) and the ones at home can only survive thanks to their parents. @cricketman
If you work in Spain, then you normally have a comfortable life because there are options for cheap rent and living accommodation (unlike in the South East of the UK), and once you retire, pensions are much more generous than UK pensions. Lots of people get 2,500 euros per month on the state pension and then have a private pension on top. Of course it's cheap in an area where there are no jobs and a salary of €600 a month is standard. Go to the cities where jobs are and you'll find rents are higher than most other places across Europe (not England). You say €2500 month state pension (dream on). Even in Germany today every second person has less than €700 per month. la pensión media de jubilación de todo el sistema está en 979,36 euros. http://noticias.lainformacion.com/ma...yWYHtT4oSfd92/ |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by andyrich666
(Post 11189571)
Who is nobody ?
It has been on all the news and in the papers too and still is today In fact all the news reports I've read seem to be stressing that the incidents occured after the demonstration has finished, and were mainly confined to Calle Genova, where the PP HQ is, and near Plaza Colon. http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/2092...-marzo/madrid/ It seems they had permission to demonstrate until 9pm and it was about then that most people started to leave slowly, but when the police tried to clear the area the trouble started. We're talking about over 2 million people carrying out a large and peaceful demonstration, with the general support of much of Spain. I think that's the main news - not the actions of a tiny minority after the event was over.
Originally Posted by andyrich666
(Post 11189571)
Gone from riots to another dig about ex pats cars in just 3 pages, maybe like me they are just worried it will be siezed, maybe the cost of keeping the cars serviced is too much, maybe they have lost the 'keeping up with the jones' syndrome once they settle.
Who knows could be many reasons. I also see so many late nice motors with major dents and or scratches on, |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
...and in today's Sur
Average pension in Andalucia €787,19 plus no subsidies such as free dental, council tax paid etc. En AndalucÃa, el número de pensiones es de 1.460.488, un 1,9% más respecto al mismo mes del año anterior. La pensión media en la comunidad es de 787,19 euros, con un crecimiento del 1,4% en relación a 2013. |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by bobd22
(Post 11189639)
Unfortunately just been on UK news Honda are cutting back shifts and looking to lay people off in Swindon due to exports falling! Not good
|
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
More shocking scenes expected in Madrid next month.....
... Eddie Izzard is going to do some shows... http://www.barcelonacomedyfestival.c...for-eddie.html |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by agoreira
(Post 11189656)
Some recent figures here for pensions, and yes there will be people getting fat pensions, but the vast majority are nowhere near that, figures here are nearer €1,000 than €2,500.
la pensión media de jubilación de todo el sistema está en 979,36 euros. http://noticias.lainformacion.com/ma...yWYHtT4oSfd92/ That is about double the UK state pension |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Do the millions on the black get a state pension?
|
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 11189700)
Yes. And people who retired in 2013 retire with a state pension of 1400 euros on average - per person remember
That is about double the UK state pension Ever look at all the top ups for UK pensioner such as no rent or council tax to pay. |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 11189652)
More nonsense
I recently hired someone to work with me, and the 20 somethings I spoke to wouldnt work for less than 20k per year And to be honest I dont know anyone who earns less than 18k per year. Most earn at least double that - I am talking young professionals And my wife's parents and aunty all have 2,500 euro state pensions. Plus private pensions. It is not unusual |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by chopera
(Post 11189675)
None of the dozen or so people I know who went there say that they saw anything.
In fact all the news reports I've read seem to be stressing that the incidents occured after the demonstration has finished, and were mainly confined to Calle Genova, where the PP HQ is, and near Plaza Colon. http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/2092...-marzo/madrid/ It seems they had permission to demonstrate until 9pm and it was about then that most people started to leave slowly, but when the police tried to clear the area the trouble started. We're talking about over 2 million people carrying out a large and peaceful demonstration, with the general support of much of Spain. I think that's the main news - not the actions of a tiny minority after the event was over. . |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11189715)
Again you're talking about young professionals who have a job but how many people aren't on these salaries or don't have a job? If you're living in Barcelona or Madrid you need to earn more, as rents are higher than most other European cities. May I ask what your wife's parents did? People are happy to get €1000 today and if everyone was getting €2500 who would be paying for it? You might be surrounded by rich people, but what about the other 90%?
My parents in law were a lawyer and funcionario earniing around 50k each My brothers and sisters in law are engineers, lawyers and businesspeople in their 30s earning between 35k and 120k per year. All in Spain, although some of them have worked out of Spain in the past They are not posh or from a rich background but they are well educated, intelligent and go-getters However, they all complain that they dont get paid enough because in the UK or US they would earn 2 or 3 times as much. But they live in Spain because life is good here. Just like we do |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 11189618)
There are lots of rich Spaniards in those areas too. I friend of my wife has a 3 million euro house in Sotogrande
It surprises me that there are only 4 million Spaniards living on 1000pm, I thought it would be more The point I am making is that some very obnoxious British people arrive in Spain and then keep going on about how the Spanish want the "rich guiri's money". Well, firstly, if someone is going to rip you off, it will probably be another Brit, and from what I saw, British people in Spain are not really any richer than the Spanish people they live with If you work in Spain, then you normally have a comfortable life because there are options for cheap rent and living accommodation (unlike in the South East of the UK), and once you retire, pensions are much more generous than UK pensions. Lots of people get 2,500 euros per month on the state pension and then have a private pension on top Crickey, in the winter here, most the old ladies walk around in thousand euro fur coats! Nonetheless, they do comprise the smaller of the expat population. Still, compared to the average native, foreigners have always represented an opportunity to easily profit. The 2-tier pricing system is a testament to that, and i need not mention the estate market, where locals offer inherited wrecks for double or triple market value in hopes of landing an unsuspecting "rich" foreign buyer - and they often wait many years to get it - locals would never pay that much. But to be fair, there is no shortage of ridiculous sums of "old" money floating around. Many of the families here are sitting on many millions acquired during and after Franco, although much of it is hidden from view. But it's also no secret that if you want to be a millionaire here, then you need to bring 2 million with you. |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 11189731)
I am providing a bit of balance to the argument. Of course I know there is a huge problem with jobs in Spain, although low pay isnt the biggest problem, the quantity of professional jobs is
My parents in law were a lawyer and funcionario earniing around 50k each My brothers and sisters in law are engineers, lawyers and businesspeople in their 30s earning between 35k and 120k per year. All in Spain, although some of them have worked out of Spain in the past They are not posh or from a rich background but they are well educated, intelligent and go-getters However, they all complain that they dont get paid enough because in the UK or US they would earn 2 or 3 times as much. But they live in Spain because life is good here. Just like we do |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by amideislas
(Post 11189734)
Yes there is no shortage of obnoxious, arrogant Brits around, most of those are of the type that seek norhing more than a sunny version of some english shire, with the expectation that all things British will be awaiting them here, and complain endlessly about the reality of it.
Nonetheless, they do comprise the smaller of the expat population. Still, compared to the average native, foreigners have always represented an opportunity to easily profit. The 2-tier pricing system is a testament to that, and i need not mention the estate market, where locals offer inherited wrecks for double or triple market value in hopes of landing an unsuspecting "rich" foreign buyer - and they often wait many years to get it - locals would never pay that much. But to be fair, there is no shortage of ridiculous sums of "old" money floating around. Many of the families here are sitting on many millions acquired during and after Franco, although much of it is hidden from view. But it's also no secret that if you want to be a millionaire here, then you need to bring 2 million with you. The point I am making is that some very obnoxious British people arrive in Spain |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11189749)
The thing is that you only hang around with upper class people. If you're working in Law are an Engineer, you are well off. Funny enough I work in Ireland IT company and as soon as we have a Spanish position, 50 or more people apply. Starting salary is 23K and most of the time these people are well educated.
A lot of Spanish young people are well educated on paper. The problem is that there havent been any jobs created since 2007. So those who have graduated since then, or lost their job in the past 7 years havent been able to get a new one. Hence why they emigrate It is a very simple problem really The problem isnt about low salaries in Spain, it is about no jobs in Spain (at the moment). The people I know graduated 10-15 years ago so are in a much better position as there were lots of oppotunities in Spain between the late 90s and 2007 |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 11189700)
Yes. And people who retired in 2013 retire with a state pension of 1400 euros on average - per person remember
That is about double the UK state pension |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by jackytoo
(Post 11189702)
Do the millions on the black get a state pension?
I wondered that too |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe
(Post 11189762)
Is that correct? I thought the pension in Spain depended on contributions - for example autonomos can choose to increase their payments in the last 10 years before retiring. But a lot of people won't have been able to do that?
The figure makes sense. You need to earn about 23k euros per year to get a pension of 1400 euros per month 23k euros is the average (median salary) in Spain. So the figures add up Like I said, British people can only dream of such a great state pension My parents in-law complain that they "only" get 7k euros per month pension between them (5k state plus 2k private). I said count your lucky stars you don't live in Britain! |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 11189759)
Be careful about using the term "upper class". That isnt the case at all ;)
A lot of Spanish young people are well educated on paper. The problem is that there havent been any jobs created since 2007. So those who have graduated since then, or lost their job in the past 7 years havent been able to get a new one. Hence why they emigrate It is a very simple problem really The problem isnt about low salaries in Spain, it is about no jobs in Spain (at the moment). The people I know graduated 10-15 years ago so are in a much better position as there were lots of oppotunities in Spain between the late 90s and 2007 |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 11189759)
Be careful about using the term "upper class". That isnt the case at all ;)
A lot of Spanish young people are well educated on paper. The problem is that there havent been any jobs created since 2007. So those who have graduated since then, or lost their job in the past 7 years havent been able to get a new one. Hence why they emigrate It is a very simple problem really The problem isnt about low salaries in Spain, it is about no jobs in Spain (at the moment). The people I know graduated 10-15 years ago so are in a much better position as there were lots of oppotunities in Spain between the late 90s and 2007 |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11189817)
The reality is that nobody will get more than €800 pension, unless it's private.
The average state pension for someone retiring in 2013 in Spain was 1400 euros per month |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 11189843)
Again, not true at all
The average state pension for someone retiring in 2013 in Spain was 1400 euros per month Anyone retiring without having made the minimum of 15 years of pension contributions will get the bare minimum "welfare" pension which is currently set at 340€ a month (but paid 14 times a year so annually 4,756€ a year). Contributory Pension Having paid social security for 15 years (2 of which must have been in the last ten years before retirment) it is possible to claim a contributory pension based on a combination of the amount of years contributions and the amount actually paid, but there is a minimum which is considerably more than the welfare pension: 588€ a month or 8,229€ a year, rising to 10,152€ a year if you are married to someone who has no pension. Those who have made the maximum contributions can receive up to 35,000€ pa. Boosting your Spanish state pension As you get older and closer to retirement it is worth getting to know the way these contributory pensions are calculated if you are paying into the Spanish system, either as an employee paying social security or a self employed "autonomo" paying monthly social security contributions. This is because the system is always changing and is likely to do so again (e.g. the 15 years may well rise to 20 under current government thinking) so you don't want to be making your plans based on false assumptions. Also if you understand the different factors which affect the calculation of the pension you can plan accordingly. There are two key factors: the number of years paying and the size of the contributions. The former is quite simple - your pension will be between 50-100% of the maximum for someone who has made your level of contributions depending on the years above 15 years and below 35 years you have been in the system. It works on a sliding scale of approximately 3% a year so someone who has paid in for 22 years gets 71% of the maximum for their rate of contribution. You can work beyond 65 to increase this percentage. The level of pension then depends on your contribution rate - "base de cotizacion". Most people opt to pay the minimum social security they can e.g an autonomo pays social security at 29.9% of the contribution base which in 2011 is 850€ at its minimum (the one most people choose thus around 254€ a month) but they could pay a base of up to 3230€ and get a much higher pension as a result. It is something to consider if you know you are going to pay into the Spanish system for 15 years minimum - paying higher contributions for some of those years could dramatically increase your pension. |
Re: Shocking Scenes in Madrid.
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 11189843)
Again, not true at all
The average state pension for someone retiring in 2013 in Spain was 1400 euros per month According to the ministry of work and immigration, the average overall state pension – including those for disability, widows and widowers, orphans and retirees – reached 774.15 euros, which translates to a year-on-year rise of 3.4 per cent. That was in 2010:rofl: |
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