Miriam67

Hi,

I previously posted regarding an issue with Usufructo. The situation continues and I was wanting to know if anyone knew the answer to the following questions -

Is it legal when selling a property in Spain for the buyer to give to a non-resident (UK seller) cash rather than a cheque or Bank Transfer? According to my stepmother's notary they can't but considering that he thought that I could use my expired Spanish ID card number (I am not a Spanish citizen, nor can I have dual citizenship) for the paperwork rather than sort out an NIE number. I'm not sure if this is one of those that differs in law wherever you are in Spain - this is happening in Lugo, Galicia.

I am going over next week for a day to go to the police station and start the paperwork to get my NIE number.

I have as yet not been given the Notary's contact/phone number and my stepmother's relatives don't seem to be able to ask the relevant questions or are afraid to ask him. I asked that when the paperwork for the sale is drawn up, that a copy is emailed to me. The nephew insists that I go and read it at the notary next week. I was wondering if they continue not wanting to send me that, if I can simply photograph the document whilst there so I can read it before possibly returning on the 16th to maybe agree to this sale. The flat was left in Usufructo by my father 6 years ago.

Today I was thrown some fees out of the blue. I was initially told all I'd have to pay is 3% tax on the half that I was being given. But now they're asking me to pay half the Certificado Energetico (came into force last year) as well as to contribute to the 'Escrito' Fee. I have frankly told (but I think I need to re-iterate this) to the nephew that I do not have 700 Euros available (when they first said that they were paying in cash, I was thinking I could pay the 3% off that or that they could simply take that off if doing a bank transfer). If they were giving me the money in cash, I would be able to, then and there, pay them.

As the buyer is giving the money to two people, my stepmother and myself, I was wondering that if it could be sorted that the money coming to me could have the said deductions removed and the rest of the cash sent to me by a Bank transfer. However, obviously, I need to ensure that the money will be in my account. I'm really at a quandry what to do as I don't think I can rely on my stepmother being given all the cash (and not sure if that's legal to do) and sending it to me in a reasonable amount of time nor do I think it'd work well to get her to pay and then I send her the money via a bank transfer as I'd end up having to pay charges and lose out I think.

Anyone got any clues?! Also, if I had a NIE number - does anyone know what I'd need to be able to get an account in Spain?

I have a UK Santander account but apparently the Spanish part of it is considered by them to be another bank so I can't go and put the cash (if it was legal to give the money to me in cash) into my UK account.

Thanks!

njf

Sorry, can't help with most of it but the 3% you mention is withholding tax that the BUYER has to withhold from the payment (because the seller is not fiscally resident in Spain) and pay to the Agencia. The notary should be sorting all this out. It is not money the seller has to pay so you should not be asked to pay it. You receive the sale proceeds net of the 3%.

However, it all sounds very fishy to me as being asked to receive cash like this is a strong sign of money laundering. It is almost certainly illegal. It certainly would be in the UK.

EDIT: One more thing. As you are a non-Spanish speaker (I assume), it is a legal requirement that the paperwork the notary draws up is in Spanish and English. Do not sign anything you do not understand.

missile

How can you have an ID card without an NIE?

Are you and step mother named on title deeds.

It is illegal to buy / sell property for cash. Usual practice is for the Notary to witness a bank guaranteed cheque being handed over.

I would suggest you need a solicitor (Abogado).

avocados

To the OP, the details you are providing in this and the original message are not sufficient so as to assertain a course of action. I've read both messages and still don't know who owns what. Do you know who owns what?

Did your father have a will and was everything distributed in accordance with Spanish inheritance law? If not, claims are possible.

Has the will been executed and all taxes paid, titles changed ?

Do you understand what usofruct means. To me it seems you don't! Usofruct does not mean ownership, yet you use the words together.

Get NOTA SIMPLEs of all the properties left by your father, that will tell you who has current legal ownership and also what debts exist (someone could have taken out a nice big mortgage on the property and now want to dump it on you!). Nota simple get online via property register. You'll need FINCA numbers.

Don't accept/give cash under any circumstance. They'll mug you as soon as you leave the notary!

Don't trust anything the other party tells you. All that matters is the written word.

Good Luck

Miriam67

I speak Spanish. My family is Spanish. I was born in the UK and live here.

I had an ID as my family had me on at the Spanish consulate from birth. What they and I didn't know was that I wasn't allowed a dual nationality so when I was 18 I got a Spanish ID done. However, I didn't renew my Spanish passport when it finished and when the ID finished (went out of date) I didn't renew it. Thus I am now fine within law as I only have British citizenship.

Usofruct is that my stepmother will 'enjoy' the use of the flats etc until death. After that the percentages are split between myself and her heirs. I state 'ownership' because she cannot sell any of the properties without my signature. I cannot have the inheritance until my stepmother dies.

The will was executed 6 years ago. No morgages were taken out on either of the properties. They were paid in full. All the bills have been paid up to date. They initially phoned me to try and get me to convert my inherited percentage of the flat to the other one my father had with her, so transfer the usufruct in theory which I refused to do.

I have tried to clarify to the nephew that I cannot pay upfront the fees he's talking about. Ok so the 3% that they first talked about, if that is taken off the amount is fine. But the rest I simply, even though it isn't much in the scheme of things (maybe about 200 Euros), cannot do as I am already paying out fares to go out there to sort the NIE number etc.

One suggestion of a way to give me the money was via Electronic Bank Transfer.

Miriam67

Wow - Spain just doesn't want to make things simple!

Went over on Wednesday and have started the process to get a NIE number. Now the couple who are buying the flat (after saying that they'd pay for my bit however we want) said that they had written up a cheque. However, this works fine for my stepmother but I've found out I would have to declare the cheque apart from the fact that it will take my bank about 6 weeks to sort that. I expressed my unease about things taking so long and my stepcousin agreed that he personally wouldn't be happy with this either.

Another option that is being investigated is that the couple do me a 'cheque nominativo' which, I am being led to understand is a cheque which I take to their bank and I present. Upon presentation, I will be paid the cash amount that is on the cheque. I don't know if there is a fee. After that, I was told that I have to go to Hacienda and do a form to be able to take that cash amount out of Spain. I was told that the form takes a day. I'm presuming that there will be a cost to get the form but I don't know if they are looking at taxes on that. The other thing I don't know is whether I can simply take this form with me on the day that I fly or whether I have to present it before I fly out. I am pretty tight for time. The cash would be kept safely until my departure and we would be met at the airport by a friend with a car.

The problem I've been told is that if we were to go back to the idea of Bank Transfer is that different banks and building societies in Spain have vastly different costs for doing the transfer, 400 Euros has even been thrown about and when I called one place, Santander Spain, they told me as I wasn't a customer that they couldn't tell me what it might cost even though I wasn't asking about a specific customer (I don't know if the people bank with them, it was to start getting some idea). The issue is that the couple buying wouldn't want to add that to the cost of the purchase so I'd really have to know to have an idea whether this was too ridiculous a price to pay.

So, currently we have a week to try and sort out how these people are paying me. I would have preferred to have the amount appear in my bank before leaving Spain (signing papers on the Monday and leaving late at night on the Thursday), so that any issues could have been addressed in Spain.

I am finding this whole process very frustrating as one moment they say, x will work and the other that it won't.

I don't know if anyone can help with any aspect of this. Regarding how Cheques Nominativos work and the declaring of money to leave the country.

We of course, don't want to do anything 'fishy' or wrong so need to ensure that if any paperwork needs to be done that it is all completed and processed in the correct manner. The notary issues have been sorted.

Thanks

Neptuno

When selling a property, isn't it the usual practice for the notary to give the bank draft to the seller, having made all the deductions, eg estate agent, solicitor, plus valia, 3% if applicable. Then, a lot of people use one of the companies that transfer the amount, for free, if going to a bank in another country, when the customer decides the rate is advantageous.
Are you saying the energy certificate is 700 euros? If so, that's hugely expensive!

Miriam67

No, the energy cert is, according to the nephew about 350 Euros. The agreement is that I'm paying half and my stepmother the other half.

There is also the price of the escrituras that I have to get fully pinned down. There's some talk of 400 euros. I have to have one for the sale and also another to cover the inheritance part as half the flat is an inheritance.

The notary said that as long as cash wasn't presented in his office, nor used as the payment, as long as some sort of proof of payment was presented that it was up to us to work out how the payment was done if that makes sense.

My other option was opening up a Spanish bank account but after opening a Santander one I found out that Santander UK and Spain are different. I don't know if I have the time now or whether I can open a Spanish bank account from the UK as I don't know if in Spain they'd need various other details.