Scenes in Catalonia
 

Terrible scenes in Barcelona, with IMO, apparent vicious repression of demonstrators.
I appreciate the referendum had been declared "illegal" by the Spanish government, but surely there could have been a better way of dealing with the issue?
Done little to enhance Spain's reputation in the eyes of the world I would think, especially reports of counter demonstrators chanting "Viva Franco".

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Democracy has never existed in Spain

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

I didn’t mention the word.........deliberately!

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

I first came to Spain before Franco kicked the bucket. I can confirm that democracy is very much greater than under the fascist regime! There may be some way to go but that is true of a number of W European countries including England.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Not my words but this does make sense IMO:

The EU is in self-preservation mode. Their nightmare scenario goes.

Catalonia becomes independent and takes its revenue with it.

Rump Spain starts running an increasingly large deficit and starts getting into financial trouble.

A major Euro nations gets into financial trouble - a failing Spain is big enough to break the Euro.

A broken Euro would be the financial crisis to end all financial crisis's.

In many ways it's the law of unintended consequences at work. In trying to create a European superstate, the EU has:

Weakened the national identity of the nation states that make up the EU.

Given the potential for an newly independent state to join the single market - albeit after a minimum of five years to tick all the required boxes.

Chickens are slowly heading home to roost.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

It must be rather embarrassing to have wished so long for the collapse of the EU (and having read the daily mail, having been convinced it was inevitable), only to find it getting stronger. Now this might bring back hope for a total collapse, as you suggest.

If Catalonia exits, it will be like Brexit. The EU won't look fondly on it, and like Britain, Catalonia would be the one who suffers the most.

But if that's what they want... Then so be it. Just like Brexit. But it's just another "everybody loses" proposition. Just like Brexit.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Interesting response - seeing as countryboy1 is OP :huh:

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

The scenes shown on the news here were shocking - police stomping on people, throwing them down stairs, dragging them by their hair, etc.

Not a good luck for sure :(

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Likewise

He said: "It has been chilling. I have seen riot police in
action in many parts of the world. Normally riot police are dealing
with riots.

"These were people carrying out what they believe was their democratic
right - going into polling stations peacefully, putting a mark on a
peace of paper and putting it in a box.

"And for doing that, in the European Union, police were pulling them out
by their hair...they were being stamped upon they were being thrown to
one side - and then rubber bullets being used to disperse them."

Catalonia independence vote: 'Hundreds injured' in referendum clashes

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Nothing is only ever negative. With everything is a positive and a negative. Even with Brexit and Catalonia. However, there are folks who want to see a negative only. May be this is what small island life does to people?

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

I think it is difficult for a foreigner to really understand the depth of feelings in Catalunia - amazing interview with an OAP so pleased to be able to vote for independence after years of being "subjected" to Madrid regime - has harboured resentment ever since the Civil War.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

You may be correct in your view that the depth of feeling is difficult to understand by foreigners, but these scenes are beamed around the world and impact upon the world view of Spain and its political and social stability. So notwithstanding whether or not foreigners understand the issue, it must affect Spain’s image in the eyes of the world and perhaps have an impact upon its economic outlook.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Absolutely - comes across as a semi-police state in which Madrid rules with an iron rod.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

My in-laws live in Barcelona and said it was such a weird day yesterday - we usually head to Barcelona at this time of year but chose not to due to the vote.

My father in law is a retired doctor, Catalan through and through and voted to exit. But he's not a "separatist" or an activist - just thinks it's for the best to preserve Catalan culture. My mother in law is from Madrid, with her family being solidly PP (though she is not - she's a PSOE supporter). The family switch between Spanish and Catalan with zero efforts (FIL speaks Catalan to the kids, Spanish to MIL and me).

Anywho - they live between Sagrada Familia and Gracia and said that if you weren't aware of anything going on - you wouldn't have noticed. Their precinct was peaceful, they went at 8 - voted (which is earlier than they tend to get up, but they wanted to go before there was any trouble). Said the atmosphere was "fiesta like". They went and had a coffee in a local bar and got a text from Sister in law who was caught up in one of the protests (not as a protester, she was on her way to the medical clinic where she works).

Their attitude was...seeing how Rajoy's dealt with this...it's pushing people that were on the fence to supporting the independence movement.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Has there been even the slightest indication as to whether ex-pat Brits will, or will not, be welcome in an independent Catalunya?

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Crikey true colours showing there. There are chilling similarities to the kind of responses we used to hear from the Soviet Politburo, when people in Poland and elsewhere were protesting to try and re establish their nation states and were being attacked by their own police .

Juncker has flown in today to give Rajoy guidance no doubt. According to the Vice President of the European Parliament (Ramón Luis Valcárcel):
"Today we have witnessed a nationalistic propaganda act, undemocratic; a coup attempt against Spanish democracy, and so a coup against Europe"

The Eu cannot allow Catalonia to break away from Spain. There would be a flood of others especially in Italy but also Flanders and Pays Basque ( Part of France and part of Spain!)

Yep you are right the EU aren't looking fondly at it.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Come on Guys! You're living in Spain long enough to know (as Frank Underwood said - House of Cards) Democracy has it limits.

The Spanish Police Forces live in barracks which was their way of policing installed permanently after the Civil War - a gift from uncle Franco.

This is a Spanish problem and a Spanish solution will be found. The English speaking nations caused enough problems outside of their mother countries; don't even think of getting involved in Spain. Spaniards have a unique way of dealing with their own problems. I'm sure we have enough of our own so let them do what they do.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Article 2 of the Lisbon Treaty says :

The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.

Article 2

Rajoy:

“If there is something to conclude from today, it is the strength of Spain’s democratic state,” Mr. Rajoy said on Sunday. “We have acted with the law and only with the law and we have shown that our democratic state has resources to defend itself against such a serious attack.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/01/w...eferendum.html


How can anyone justify this?

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Franco died but his ideas did not go away.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

As a Gibraltarian I can assure you Spain has never honoured Article 2

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

You mean civil war with atrocities on both sides ? yeah let em carry on :(

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Very true, whichever way they look the Dictatorial Eu Empire Building project is falling apart.

I see Jean Clown Juncker is in Madrid giving lessons on Democracy.
Oh, the irony !

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

You are confusing the National Police with the Guardia Civil. National police operate on a very similar basis to most European police, Guardia Civil are a Gendarmerie Force (something UK does not have) they are based on a more military basis, they do have not barracks but accommodation where they are based but yes also have some barrack type camps.

Most of the very bad policing I have seen from Barcelona in the media in fact was National Police rather than the Guardia. They seemed to me I'll trained and out of control.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Police state?
As an ex steel worker I well remember, and witnessed the atrocious scenes at Orgreave during the miners strike, in the Thatcher era.
"Let those who are without sin cast the first stone!"
Pete

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

What surprised me was the Mossos didn't get involved. Even if it was against their own people, I've never known them to show restraint - they love a good fight.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Yes, but that was in the days before video recording was commonplace. And police forces could expect to get away with such behaviour.

Has anyone any indication as to the likely attitude of Carles Puigdemont and his Catalan European Democratic Party towards ex-pats, especially Brits?

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

The situation in Barcelona probably will not ignite in armed terms, but it has the potential for such. If it does ignite, please let the UK, EU, Ireland etc keep out of it. It's hardly our business. The Spaniards (including Catalans) have their own way of dealing with things. Let them sort out their own future, peacefully, I hope!

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Yes, let's all look the other way.
I mean, it's not as if it could ever happen to us could it?

The Catalan police force did not want to go up against their own people and deserve credit for that. The GC and NP are not the police. They work for the government. In any credible democracy the police only exist because the people wish to be policed. I don't mean Dixon of Dock Green, but the people should respect the police in the same way that the police should respect the ordinary people they server. As soon as that contract is broken you have a police state where the rule of law means a beating for anyone who steps out of line.

There can never be a situation where it is acceptable for government to authorise violence against its own people. In the case of the October 1st Referendum Rajoy only needed to declare the referendum meaningless and that the result would be ignored. What he did was unforgivable.

Now he's sending in the troops and still the EU stay silent. How can anyone who respects democracy support this? It would appear that this is the true face of the EU.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

On the one hand, I believe in the right to self-determination. On the other hand, as the Catalans are pro-EU, I do not understand the need for it. Or am I missing something?

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Hi and a warm welcome to the Spanish forum on BE. Myself and Fred James are the moderators for the Spanish forums whilst BEVS moderates Europe. Moderators are there to ensure that the site runs smoothly within the rules of BE. This is so that members gain the information that they are looking for and find their experiences on the forums to be friendly and worthwhile.

Problems and complaints should always be addressed to a moderator who will look into the matter and deal with it efficiently and fairly. Our members who post in the Spain Forums are usually friendly and helpful with a wealth of knowledge about the issues of living in Spain. I hope that you enjoy your time participating in the forums.

Please let me know if you need any further help.

Rosemary

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Not that much different to Scotland pre EU referendum really from that point of view. Obviously now if anyhthing having as a country voted to remain in EU while England voted leave, then now different.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

If civil war starts NATO will get involved,

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

On both sides?

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Somehow I doubt that. This an internal matter for Spain to resolve.

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Just like it was in 1936?

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Which Spain ? the Catalonia one or the Madrid one ?

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Both

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Not going very well so far is it?:(

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

Sickening scenes as the Times put it so well Europe centrist stability is shrinking

Re: Scenes in Catalonia
 

You'd think Brexit would've been a good example of what not to do. No winners... Everybody loses.

I suppose that will become more obvious after Britain drives itself off the cliff. I suspect Catalonia may not get that far.