sjrw

It is very worrying to think that an insurance company is allowed to take your money and issue a certificate to say you are insured when they must know the law regarding insurance and the legality or otherwise of automobiles. If the form that you fill in initially for the insurance doesn't ask the questions then how are you to know what answers to give. If you ask an insurance company for insurance on a vehicle you have brought over from UK then surely it is up to them to ask the right questions; and then when you have purchased it in good faith it should be incumbent upon them to pay up in the case of a claim.

i.e. if the insurance company issues a certificate after you have answered all their questions fully and truthfully, then they should have no comeback if you subsequently make a claim.

keithwalters

I expect if you read the small print there will be a get out clause for them.

sjrw

There always is - isn't that how they make their money...

mikelincs

I was at an insurance brokers this morning, getting travel insurance, but I did see a document on the desk of the girl dealing with my request, that showed that they are on bonus commission, and quite a good one, depending on the number and amount of NEW and RENEWED car policies they get. This leads me to think that perhaps they don't fully worry about the legality or not of the car, but it's just a new policy, and more points for them, so more money for them.

Fred James

The 8000 is not an allowance. If your family income is less than 8000 then you do not have to declare - it goes up to 9000 for 2007.

You both get personal allowances and for a couple that adds up to at least 12500. If over 65 it is higher. If your joint income was over 9000 you would have to declare but there may well be no tax to pay if most of your income is your govt pension.

What Blevins Franks says is just what I have been saying. You can only have one country of tax residency (based on the 183 days) but you can still end up paying tax in another country as well. The amount you pay in the second country can be offset against the tax you pay in the first country.

A resident pays wealth tax on assets outside Spain but residents get much higher allowances. The same applies to CGT and IHT - the allowances are higher.

As you say, a visit to a good tax specialist is called for if you have significant assets outside Spain.

I know this has drifted away from the original subject - perhaps our kind moderator could put all the relevant posts in a new thread.

finca steve

Hi back again after a long delay away in the UK and other stuff.

The saga continues!!!!

Last post I was waiting to get the ITV documents from the ITV station then off to traffico - hooray hooray. piece of cake.

Collected said documents yesterday, wednesday 27th no problem having got there early as suggested.

Off to traffico in Huelva, dead easy and again so far no problem. Relieved of 69.70 euros at traffico, registration fee then to the counter to get the registration number.

'Ah, you have not been and paid the road tax. You need an 'alta cello'.'

'OK'

'You also need to go to hacienda and pay if necesary the 'impuesto matriculacion y exencion'.'

Whatever that is.

So off to the 'gestion tributaria' office, present documents and pay 53.96 euros road tax. Great getting somewhere at last.

Now to hacienda to see if I have to pay the dreaded spanish illegal import tax.

'you need a digital signature.'

'how do I get that?'

'first you need a code number'

'what for?'

'this lets us give you a secure digital signature which you will need to download and compete modelo 576 which you need to fill in. It works out what tax is due on the vehicle.'

'can I have a paper form please?'

'no only can be done on line!'

'Ok, so now what do I do?'

'go home and apply to www.fnmt.es then 'ceres' for 'obtencion certificado de usairio.'

applying here gives you a code number.

'by the way do this at home on your computer'

'why?'

''because you have to use the same computer to get the digital signature to get the form modelo 576'

My head hurts!!!!

Don't understand. but apparently the form is a secure computer generated document that has to have a unique digital signature to give you access and this can only be provided to the same computer which was used to apply for it in the first place.

I live an hour away and so wasn't inclined to go home and then come back after 10 minutes on the computer so, lateral thinking, managed to find an internet shop about 1/2 mile away.

Plod off hot sun, not happy.

Follow instructions. Yippee! I now have a code number.

Hot foot back to hacienda, wait turn and eventually they programme all into the system. 'Now what?'

'Back to the same computer for the form'

OK and off again to the internet shop. Feeling pretty glum by now and still hot.

Try all sorts but can't get anything to work. Man in shop really helpful but equally at a loss.

Back to hacienda.

'what am i doing worng?'

'did you use same computer?'

'eventually. but no deal'

'you did go onto th FNMT site again?'

'no I went to the virtual office on the www.agenciatributaria.es site you told me to use.'

'wrong, you have to activate the code and then download the form'

'oh bugger! can't you do it for me?'

'computer says no!!!!!' ( and so did she)

Time running out as it is now nearly 2 pm and all is closing. Back to shop as the shutters come down.:curse:

Damn and blast and anything else you can think of.

The shop doesn't open again until 5 in the evening but I am a bit pissed off so decide to go home and try again today.

Thursday

On line again and get new code number from FNMT

Go to local hacienda in Ayamonte as we are going shopping, give the nice lady the code and she does her bit.

Back home to get the digital signature. No dice!! What!!!!

Read small print which says wait 24hours for code to be activated.

So there we are at 1922hrs and another 2 days wasted and tantilisingly close but not done yet.

It does seem long winded as we know that in the UK you can get a new car registered fairly easily on line. But here it is another problem, possibly more difficult as we are not residents and have a few(?) issues with the language but what if we didn't have a computer and had no language at all. I suppose this is where a gestor comes in and we still don't know if we have to pay the dreaded Spanish import tax yet. :curse:

The next step - tomorrow see if we can get the digital signature, the form downloaded, filled in and then another trip to traffico. But time is running out as it has to all be done within 30 days.

Anyone worked out what I spent so far in cash terms as opposed to time, travelling and nervous energy?

Probably a lot. so have a good laugh at my expense now if you wish because hopefully all will be resolved one way or the other in the next 7 days.

Next up-date when there is something to say. Hopefully tuesday. B....y weekend in the way.

Cheers

rugbymatt

ding ding, round 2.

keithwalters

I´ve just gone through the "digital signature" process only about 2 weeks ago. It serves for quite a few things apart from the car registration.

I did it so that I can now do my tax returns and RENTA online cos I´m self employed. Anyone ever sat and watched a gestor do your RENTA? It takes under 5 minutes. I watched my gestor do it once and then thought bugger it, I´m doing it myself next year. You download a programme from the Hacienda and all the figures are already in the correct places on the form. Piece of piss!! Sometimes I can´t believe how advanced Spain is, and then other times it seems totally backwards.

Anyway, I digress. The advice about printing the code from your home computer was a sound piece of advice. If you ever need to do anything else online you would have to seek out the same computer in the same internect cafe for it to work.

I´´m chuffed to bits with my diggy siggy because now there are a whole load more things I can do without having to remove my arse from my chair.

Pam Sarky

Steve, sounds like an absolute nightmare But after meeting you I know you will get through it sin problemo

Good luck

finca steve

Hi Keith,

Re digital signatures, I thought as much.

Did you have to wait the 24hours? Have tried again this am, only 22 hours gone and still nothing? My connection is so poor I am afraid it is something at my end. 1230 pm should tell me.

finca steve

Sam you have more faith than I but I am determined to persevere if only
a) to prove I can and
b) to show to others that once you understand what to do anything is possible.

My only concern now is that if hacieenda comes back and tells me I can't register the LR for some obscure reason or they want loads of ILLEGAL import duty. Maybe I should hav got the signature and completed their form first BEFORE parting with my hard won cash.

Hey ho as rugbymat says ding ding round 15!

keithwalters

Yes, there was a delay. Can´t remember exactly long it was, but hours rather than days. I received and email notifying me when the system was activated.

finca steve

Thanks Keith,

will try to be patient.

finca steve

I have finally completed the (very) taxing of my Land Rover and below I have written tthe last and, sorry, rather long detail of the final part.

to recap: I needed to get a digi signature inordeer to download and complete the registration form. I applied for it but nada and finall ran out of time in Huelva so wnet home to start the process again.

If you are not too bored read on;

At home I reapplied online for a new code using my computer.
Following day down to hacienda in Ayamonte and present my code and given another piece of paper telling me that I will shortly receive a digital signature.
Whistle back home and fire up the computer looking for the digital signature. Nothing.
Read the paperwork and it says in small print at the bottom that I should hear within 24 hours!!!! No wonder I had nothing further.
24 hours later I check. Nothing.
It’s now Friday and no chance of getting much done this week so there’s another one gone by.
Saturday am up early and whoppee I have an email telling m that I now have a digital signature which automatically gets downloaded onto my computer.
Now we can get the form filled in and early Monday go off to traffico to finally get my plates.

All weekend I try and try but can make no sense of form (modelo) 576. I just can’t find out what I am supposed to do. I think I can understand the Spanish but clearly something is not right and I am really getting worried as time is pressing on and I am now almost over the 30 day deadline for getting all this done.

After trying to seek assistance from friends and local Spanish/english speakers I can find no one to help over the weekend. Very frustrating and I am totally fed up so decide to bite the bullet and seek the help of a gestor to do this next bit

Monday am into the village and try find our local solicitor to assist but she is not there.

OK off to Ayamonte to a solicitor I know there.

‘No problem’ she says reassuringly, ‘my father does all the car paperwork, he is in Huelva but coming this afternoon so can do it tomorrow and you can collect it on Wednesday’

At last this is getting better.

‘It will cost about 60 - 70 euros plus IVA.’ I knew I had to pay, but is seems a lot for just a simple form.

Hold my breathe till Wednesday then make the call.

‘sorry but yesterday he was ill and had to go to Seville.’

My answer is not really polite and she asks me if I want the papers back. Not really.

Thursday comes and I am told he has done his thing; the import tax is 250 euros which I need to pay in at the bank, La Caixa is best as they know what to do, and after paying the bank I am to go to his office to pick up the paperwork and by way his price is 100 euros plus IVA.
.

Well it is all sounds easy from here so another early no breakfast departure to Huelva. Traffic a nightmare and waste time finding a parking space. La Caixa is in the centre of town and the car park some distance away. So again walking in the sunshine – hot.

Go to the bank and take a ticket to wait my turn. At least 10 in front so decide to find a loo outside but waste time in the supermarket whose loo is at the back of the top floor and bust so when I back to the bank I have missed my turn and have to get another ticket and wait. This time there are at least 15 in front. Wait patiently and then tell the young man I need to pay 250 euros to hacienda.

‘have you got the bill?’

‘my solicitor said I don’t need one!’

‘we can’t pay without a bill’

‘I was told that if I gave you my NIE number and you go to the agencia tribuaria website you can pay this amount on line.’

The manager comes over and says they can’t pay without a bill. ‘Very sorry’

So now what? Well I have to find where the solicitor or gestors office is. I grab a quick coffee after all there is still loads of time. At the office I meet the gestor who tells me that the bank don’t need a bill it is simple all on line so go back and tell them I said so. He gives me a print out of what they need to do.

My frustration is only mollified by the enchanting sight of his assistant. How she keeps her figure with all the olive oil and tapas I don’t know. But I stray.

Back to the bank and wait in line again.

Still a blank with the young man who despite reassurances does not seem to know what to do. I give him the solicitors card and suggest they talk. A few word and key taps later the printer bursts into life and prints out a receipt for my payment.

Now I can smell the new number plates. I am getting close.

Back to the gestor. He taps away at this computer and from what I can see the form 576 is pretty complicated lots of numbers and detail.

Finally I get the next bits of paper and full of confidence but short of time I walk briskly off to Traffico.

Wait in line for my turn, hand over papers, much shuffling and sorting when finally at 1.30 am told to wait by window 2 where I will receive the registration documents in about 15 minutes.

Great this leaves 15 minutes to nip over the road and get the new plates then at last I am done.

Time to grab some refreshment next door then upstairs and wait expectantly. The man with the form appears and we all rush forward with our receipts full of expectation.

‘These documents are not here’ he says.

‘What? I was told 15 minutes. Where are they?’

‘Don’t have them!’

‘I need them now. I have paid all this money and waited in line and it is over month. I want them now!’

‘Don’t have them. They are not here’

At this point I really lose it. I am ashamed to say that this poor inoffensive man in traffico took the full brunt of an extremely rude outburst of anglo saxon language at it’s most colourful. Everyone in looking but still no papers.

At this point a polite young man appears at my should.

‘I am afraid there is a mistake’

‘What!!!!?’

‘The NIE number is incorrect so we can do no more’

He is right ,the gestor has picked up my wife’s NIE number which was in the same bundle of paper as was mine.

I am shattered. It is now 2 pm and everything is shutting down for lunch.

I rush out of traffico ringing the gestor as I go.

‘stay where you are. There is a mistake on the form’

Not to happy I walk back to his office and confront him. He is very sorry and busily corrects the mistake on the computer and prints of the corrected form.

So now I have to go back to traffico in Huelva on Monday to do it all again.

Another week and no registration. I am extremely upset by all this but try to drive back gently breathing deeply to calm myself down a little.

The weekend passes and Monday am off to Huelva again.

This time at last all goes swimmingly apart from the lady at the desk who does not want to deal with this rude and upset English man. The guy next door is more helpful and although he was not present when I made an exhibition of myself he had certainly heard all about it. He was most conciliatory and within 15 minutes I had all I need and a new Spanish registration number.

I felt somewhat deflated and it was all a bit of an anticlimax. Why could it not always go so smoothly.

So new plates are now fitted and our old Discovery has a new home.

What can I learn from all of this.

To a foreigner with limitations in the Spanish department the system does seem just too complicated. There must have been 100 people in traffico and 1000 in hacienda and by the end the whole thing appears to be providing jobs for the boys.

I understand under eu rules the 250 euros is an illegal and is 12% of the current value of the car which they work out. They have the new price and for every year old this is reduced by a predetermined coefficient.

This is grossly unfair as VAT has already been paid in the EU and there is supposed to be free movement of goods and vehicles.

Last year the whole system was changed and even the Spanish have trouble with the online instructions. There was at least one other person in traffico having trouble, a Spaniard, and the guy behind me was comparing it to the German system where he spent half an hour with all the various departments under one roof and was sorted in no time. Ok so he was exporting a German car out of Germany which I can understand is somewhat easier but from what I hear registering a foreign EU registered car in the UK cost about £40 and can all done online and simply.

Finally is doing it yourself worth the aggro?

Probably not but it should be possible and is another example of snaring someone else into the loop so they can charge and include TVA which of course is yet another little bit for the government coffers.

Finally putting it all into perspective it is still cheaper than taking the car back to the UK to have it MOT and taxed.

6 tanks of fuel 360
Ferry fare two ways say 500
Mot 60
Tax 225
Hotel 2 nights 100
Total in euros 1550

I paid a total of 882

Quids in !!!!

Sorry about all tis but if you can sort out the detail it may be of help to anyone contemplating doing the same.

Steve

Mitzyboy

It was simple then Steve

Still, I can't relate it to my grey import re registration which basically consisted of going to the test centre, sitting there for half an hour, and then meeting the gestor two days later for the paperwork
Must be something about Landrovers