JBanyoles

I would just like to add a couple of comments on catalan, a couple of the other posters have said that they don't speak catalan and have no intentions of learning it, someone even compared it to gaelic(Catalan has over 7million speakers worldwide just a wee bit more than gaelic )

I would recommend learning catalan (even if just the basics) as it will make it far easier for you to be accepted by the locals here, I've been living out here for 5 years and thanks to having learnt catalan from the start 95% of my friends out here are catalan, and im proud to fly my estallada on the 11th of september!

However despite saying that if you just want to live the easy life for two years without getting fully intergrated learn spanish and continue giving the british a bad name amoungst the catalans :P


Visça Catalunya!

cricketman

Well I see you live in a village near Girona. You HAVE to speak Catalan there or as you say, you will be an outcast.

The situation is a little different in Barcelona because half the Spanish people there dont speak Catalan as their first language. However, speaking Catalan and Spanish would very much help, but is a tall order for most Brits.

pain-in-spain

I would recommend learning catalan (even if just the basics) as it will make it far easier for you to be accepted by the locals here, I've been living out here for 5 years and thanks to having learnt catalan from the start 95% of my friends out here are catalan, and im proud to fly my estallada on the 11th of september!

However despite saying that if you just want to live the easy life for two years without getting fully intergrated learn spanish and continue giving the british a bad name amoungst the catalans :P

Having lived in Barcelona 8 years, visited all my life and with Spanish father who moved here from La Rioja in the 1930´s, I don´t speak Catalan and never will. It´s a minority language, despite the hyped figures worldwide who supposedly speak it. The Catalans are a very closed and blinkered people and their obsession with their language, which I find very unpleasant to listen to, has prevented them from progressing in a lot of things. As Cricketman says, Barcelona is full of immigrants who don´t even speak Spanish never mind Catalan. I hear it spoken quite often and the younger generation who went to school here are bilingual. Catalan has no use whatsovever outside Catalunya and unless you live in a little village it´s not necessary. The catalans are not liked in general in Spain for their dryness and insular attitude, I´ve been to other parts of Spain where the people are a million times more helpful and friendly. I am only here due to my father´s heritage and having Spanish family here, all of them have lived all their lives here (70+ years) and my Spanish aunt who was married to a Catalan for 40 years doesn´t speak it either. They are Spanish and considered immigrants by the Catalans which I find deeply offensive, but that´s what the Catalans are like.
The official language of Spain is Spanish (Castilian), Catalunya is a province and even though the Catalans don´t like this fact, that´s the way it is.
This is another example of how divided this country is and if it didn´t have all the bureaucracy to do with all the so-called autonomous regions it might actually have become a much more successful country, as it stands it is now in a bad way and speaking Catalan should be low down their list of priorities.

Viva España

cricketman

No wonder you find Barcelona hard with that attitude!

I found Barcelona extremely pro-Catalan, but that is fair enough, it is up to them. All kids in Barcelona are now going to grow up speaking Catalan as it is the first language of schools now, Spanish is only going to be taught as a second language. So Catalan is only going to get more important.

Btw, Catalan is an official language in Catalunya, jointly with Spanish. Catalunya also has a higher GDP than the rest of Spain, so I think it does pretty well and isnt holding them back. Interestingly the Basque country is also richer than Spain. It is the Castellano speaking provinces that are poorer (I think this is mainly due to geography though, not the language!)

Also, it is a huge advantage to Catalan and Basque children to grow up bilingual in their own language and Spanish. This makes it easier for them to learn a third or fourth language later in life e.g. English or French. Maybe why Catalans and Basques are so good at business!?

The Catalan-Castellano battle is mainly down to Franco's policies, given that he banned the language and then encouraged migration of Spaniards into Catalunya to dilute the Catalan culture. The Catalans now are reacting in kind, if you do not like the idea of speaking Catalan, then Catalunya isnt going to be the place to live over the next 20 years!

pain-in-spain

Oh dear, not another "born again" as I call them. This is rubbish, Spain is a country, the Catalan and Basque areas are regions, the country I live in is called Spain and that´s that. Neither language is of any use outside their province, Spanish is second to the English language in world importance and any foreigner here would be better off using their time learning it, there is no advantage to being bi-lingual in Basque or Catalan. The Catalans are arrogant, much moreso than the Basques. You love to quote GDP´s but why don´t you have a look at the La Rioja region, where my father is from, I think you will find it´s one of the richest areas and they speak Spanish there and don´t rely on bottom of the barrell tourists for their economy like the Catalans do. If they care so much about their land, maybe they need to take a look at the destruction they have allowed with the overbuilding and cheap tourism industry not to mention the high level of crime in Barcelona, most likely the highest in Spain. The Catalans are mostly snobs who used the so-called Spanish immigrants to build their region, they are far outnumbered here by immigrants from third world countries who don´t even speak Spanish. Even if their children are forced to learn Catalan at school that will never make them Catalan as the Catalans are very racist and closed. Clinging onto their language is all they have, if they want to invest all their time and money on it that´s fine, it doesn´t change the general attitude of outsiders to their provicinal and narrow minds. As I have repeatedly said,I´m here due to my family, I live in Spain and in the region of Catalunya, this is not a country. I have no intention to be here in 20 years as I´m planning my move back to London in the next few months anyway. If I moved back to Spain I would go elsewhere.

manamama

You keep blaming people´s "attitude" as the reason why expats have problems in Spain or if they do not share your views.

There is definitely more truth in what Pain-in-spain says than your facts and figures.

JBanyoles

Well said! i teach in a catalan school and from the 1st year of primary the students study 5 hours of catalan a week, 5 hours of english, 3 hours of spanish, and from when they start ESO (gcse's/O level) they have the option of 2 hours a week french. It amazes me that i can have a (short) conversation with a non native 8 year old in english.

On a seperate note pain-in-spain, you say that catalan isn't spoken outwith catalunya, well what about Andorra(a country) Valencia(another "spanish" province) Alghero(not even on the hispanic peninsular) Majorca, menorca, eivissa(islands in case you didn't know ) Even Glasgow university(in Scotland) offers courses in catalan, the times are changing and people are proud to be catalan and speak their language. I even know spanish that have moved here from the south of spain (your so called immigrants) that have made the effort to learn catalan and speak it proudly both in the streets and at home. Opinions such as yours are what is causing the tensions between catalunya and the rest of spain, most catalans that I am in contact with don't really care much about independence but do what to be official recognised as what they are.. Catalan not Spanish.

To end with i would like to state that i mean no personal offence by any of my comments, and am just stating my thoughts.

Jack,

cricketman

How the heck do you know. Have you spent a few years living in Barcelona and speaking to Calalans who say they feel 0% Spanish? (Not all of them btw). I've also read several books about the issue because I think it is an interesting one

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, in this case I do not agree with Pain-in-spain, he/she sounds like a fascist and anti-democratic to me, which I do not like.

Catalans vote for their regional government and they have decided to encourage Catalan and they refer to Catalunya as a "nation" as he/she well knows. As long as Catalunya does not get violent like ETA or blindly descriminate against non-Catalans they I say let them do what the government and their voters want. This is democracy after all

pain-in-spain

There are plenty with your attitude, outsiders who want to engraciate themselves with the Catalans, fine, each to his own. However, for every one like you there are probably 10 like me, this says a lot. My opinion is nothing at all to do with the so called tensions between Catalunya and rest of Spain, it´s caused by the arrogant Catalans themselves and them wanting to be better than everyone else, which they are not. Nobody is denying them their language, but they have no right to force it on anyone who doesn´t want to learn it. You are totally wrong about Valencia, they speak their own dialect and most Valencianos would be offended if you refer to them as Catalans, they are not. The Balearic islands speak their own dialect of Catalan, but they are little holiday places with no industry to speak of. You have referred to small and insignificant places who use Catalan or a dialet of it, not exactly world domination is it. Spanish and English are the great and most powerful languages to have influenced the world, Catalan is a provincial language by comparison. By the way, when I refer to "so-called" immigrants from other parts of Spain, that is not my terminology. I was shocked when I first moved here and heard Catalans referring to immigrants and then found out they were talking about Spain and not the Pakistanis. My father moved here as a 2 year old during Franco´s regime, he totally understands Catalan but will never speak nor does he want to speak it. So what if Glasgow university offers a course in Catalan, I am sure there are plenty of minority languages offered in universities around the world, that´s great but it is of no use to those wanting to broaden their horizon. As I keep saying and it has been conveniently blanked, Catalunya is not a country, I live in Spain and the official language in Spain is Spanish. The Catalan language may be official here but that does not make it obligatory. Every job I have ever had here has required bi-lingual Spanish and English, my Catalan friend who works for a multi-national uses English and Spanish in her work and Catalan is only used by Catalans for chit chat. There are many examples of this. The Spanish people I work with also born here and totally bi-lingual do not speak Catalan, just as well!
Cricketman - yes, this is a democracy and if the Catalans want independence and they win the vote, great. My argument is all the wasted resources discussing the Catalan language and it´s supposed relevance, there are more important issues at hand, especially with the dire economy here. There has always been rivalry between Madrid and Barcelona, essentially the Catalans can´t stand the fact that they are not the capital and have to take orders from the Spanish, well that´s too bad, as I said and will keep on saying, Spain is a country and Catalunya is a province. The day this changes, I will say it like it is, till then, my opinions and those of countless many, will remain.

manamama

Yes I do know a hell of lot more than you give credit....

I know many from Barcelona and listen to their opinions....you may find the history interesting but I find people interesting...

BTW..bit rude to call someone a facist for having a very common opinion albeit opposist of yours !! You need to listen to people without judging st quickly...

pain-in-spain

Thanks for backing me up Manamama, although I have sometimes agreed with Cricketman who has spoken some truth on certain issues, he should not call me a facist. The funny thing is, as a half Spanish person with a Spanish father who´s father fought in the Civil war, I do know a hell of a lot (although I concede, not everything) about my father´s country. My Catalan uncle was a very educated man (sadly he died 10 years ago) and he never much liked speak Catalan and embraced our Spanish (or should I say, as the Catalans do, immigrant family). What has happened over the years is that the Catalans themselves have become facisit and are almost worse than the regime that supposedly disallowed their language (which is actually not wholly true). They are facist beyond belief, fining shops or businesses that omit to have Catalan in their signage, only putting Catalan signage in major museums (knowing that the majority of visitors are from outside Spain!). My big argument is, if they are truly bi-lingual, which they love to say they are, why are the street names all in Catalan. Other truly bilingual countries put the place names in both languages, not here. The truth is that the Catalans have become the biggest facists of all, I am certainly not one but I know one when I see one!

cricketman

Because the street names used to be in Catalan before Franco stormed into Barcelona, changed them all and repressed the Catalan language and culture for over 40 years.

Quite a good excuse to change them back to Catalan I think.

Anyway, we are not going to resolve a huge and complicated issue like this on here. I actually do agree that the Catalans are being fascist in their implimentation of the Catalan language into education and society. They are not allowing parents to have the choice with the language their children have to be educated in. Unfortunately the millions of Spaniards who were encouraged to move into Catalunya under Franco are now in a bad situation where they either adapt, complain a lot, or move out.

Btw, I think Andalucia should pass a law that Spanish must be displayed in every commercial premises. And that a Spanish speaking member of staff must be available. We asked for a Spanish menu at an "international" restaurant here on the CDS many years ago, and they didnt have one!

snikpoh

Please be careful, Valenciano is another 'langauge' again - similar to Catalan but NOT the same.

If you mentioned this to a true Valencian, they would be most upset!

lynnxa

absotively

jdr

Nobody moans about my cockney Spanish.