Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

So are you saying that it would be a step forward to make the likes of Richard Branson etc pay 100 quid for a load in the local bakery just because they can afford it.

In fact a multi-price scale based on ones personal wealth?

And by the opposite token should a modest wage earner be able to offer 100 quid on a 5k engagement ring, because that is all he can afford to pay?.

The jeweller could sell it to the "poorer customer" cheaply because the likes of David Beckham would be charged 100k for the 5k ring. (according to your logic and sense of fairness, that is):confused:

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

In the case of the spuds it's a question of supply and demand. 60c a kilo sounds fine to me! I must be weird or know weird people 'cos I know quite a few tradespeople who will accept less for someone on a pension with little resources/family that they have known a while and fluff out the bill for someone who won't have any problems paying. We are talking necessities here, not diamond rings.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

In NZ in 2010 with a ex-Kiwi friend. Everywhere we went, bars, cafés, restaurants, accomodation the bill was adapted, we always ended up paying more than the price displayed. There are laws against this but...good old NZ'rs, major rip-off zone

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

No, you have just misunderstood it

When any consumer good is priced, it is priced according to how much a target group will pay for it, often this bears little relation to the production cost.

Richard Branson wouldnt pay £100 for loaf of bread in the UK because he can go next door and get it for £1. However, he may pay £500 a day to get a loaf of bread delivered to his private island, as he may have no cheaper alternative, and £500 is peanuts to him.

In any business, you should always price on that basis. It is the basis of capitalism

I like socialism, I have nothing against paying what things costs plus a small margin, but we do not live in a world like that

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Well in my xp,after running a bar in spain 7 years and wife working in the trade here 14 years,the worst customers you get are the ex pats that sit down, and the first thing they say when ordering is,we live here,like they would get some kind of discount by saying that,even worse is when they say, the time they have lived here,like they are special or something,when was the last time a person walked into a bar in england and said how long he had lived there before he ordered a pint in the hope of getting 20p off,never got asked that in 20 years of running pubs in devon holiday resorts

sorry keyboard messed up,cant do quotes

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

I still don't understand. As far as I can see most goods are priced the same (if they are the same goods) whoever they are targeted at.

We go to two Mercadonas - one in Sotogrande and the other in La Linea. The prices are the same in both.

In your Richard Branson example, the goods he is buying are not the same. One is a loaf of bread, the other is a loaf of bread delivered to his island - priced differently because it is not the same thing - no other reason.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Mercadona have the same target audience in both areas. Basically, people who are very conscious about saving money when buying food. McDs costs pretty much the same everywhere because of the same reason

Maybe my example wasnt the best put the point remains. Consumer goods are priced at an amount they will sell best at depending on the target audience, they are not simply priced at production price plus a small margin

When I went skiing a few weeks ago a burger and chips cost 30 euros everywhere. Why? Simply because thats how much people are prepared to pay (and can afford to) where I went. You could get the same dish for less than 10 euros (maybe even 5) in the middle of a Spanish city, and the production costs wouldnt be that different

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

I often wonder what impact the lefties believe ideologies like this will have on society. Me thinks they rarely think through it. It's clearly an emotional response rather than a rational one.

Today, many seem to believe prosperity should be penalised at every opportunity - an increasingly popular view held most oft by those who contribute the least, yet benefit the most.

But inevitably, reality comes to pass, the human desire to prosper prevails, and the liberals are always amongst the beneficiaries.

The neo "liberals" then leverage those benefits in their quest to demand that the prosperous support those who are not (distribution of wealth), which, over a period of a generation or two, only teaches the population to rely on others for their well-being, rather than achieve it through contribution.

As more and more rely on the prosperous for their well-being, naturally, fewer and fewer contribute, those who are willing to contribute are more likely to do it elsewhere, and eventually prosperity becomes nothing more than a fleeting fancy, resulting in mass discontent, and the cycle begins all over again.

It's no wonder we're in the condition we're in.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

What are you going on about? What I describe is the current liberal capitalist model, not a socialist one :rofl:

I find it incredible that a supposed advocate of the current system doesnt know that

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

I suspect ami's comment was in response to me me's analysis of what they thought you meant as an alternative to the current system - i.e. that people should be charged variable prices according to their wealth. The problem stems from you not describing very well what you meant. Your skiing burger scenario works somewhat better.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Well, like I've said before, I sometimes sense you are beginning to get it - although at times you still revert back to the nonsensical retorts of your past.

Here's another classic:

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Well thats true. I stand by that quote

It doesnt mean that I reject capitalism though. I use it to my advantage to make me and my family better off. But it is not a particular good or fair system. However, you can only play with the rules that the game gives you

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

But if you go to the two Carrefours, La Linea and Los Barrios you will see different prices, particularly in white / electriclal goods. With La Linea usually but not always the cheapest.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

I can see how you would feel that way - since you always seem to believe that you and 5 billion others live in poverty, whilst the remaining 2 billion are trillionaires who've become that way by enslaving the rest of the population.

Still, as you come out of the darkness into reality, try to grasp that far more of the population is far better off today than before capitalism, when the vast majority of the population actually were truly impoverished, whilst only a handful of the privileged enjoyed the spoils of the vast majority of the world's wealth.

I'd be the last to claim we now have any sort of utopia, but penalising prosperity only makes it harder for those less fortunate to prosper, including yourself (or perhaps like so many like-minded armchair activists, would it only apply to others?).

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

You dont actually read my posts do you?

I am not in poverty, I am one of the 1%! Certainly globally, and I'm almost there for UK/Spanish figures too. Lucky me

This is not a case of envy, but what is fair and just, right and wrong

You talk about "penalising prosperity", but most prosperous people (myself included) are only so because they are repressing other people. I repress people if I buy a piece of clothing from a Chinese factory paying poverty wages, or if I do a new project for Monstanto or Nestle (yes unfortunately these companies help pay my bills). Most aspects of modern life involve richer people exploiting poorer people.

This has been happening for hundreds of years though. The amazing buildings in London or even Sevilla are built with blood money and exploitation of other parts of the world

The system stinks

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Going back to the OP. I am sure it is liilegal under EU laws to have different pricing structures for different nationalities:confused:

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

I think you are conveniently overlooking the fact that many things that contributed to the greater financial security and well-being of working class people were only achieved because they were fought for by socialists - old age pensions, paid holidays, sickness pay, a public health system free at the point of use, a minimum wage in many developed countries, employment rights to prevent them being hired and fired at will. The wealthy were not exactly queuing up to volunteer these things, in the UK for example those who employed servants were outraged at the prospect of having to pay National Insurance contributions for their staff.

Without these things people might still be living in fear of ending up in the workhouse, or perhaps you think that might be preferable?

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..."EU? We are an autonomous community. We abide by our own laws" as a guardia civil officer once told me at a police control ... ...as they randomly searched the car for anything they could impose some sort of fine for ... Of course they were disappointed to find nothing...

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Actually while it is very true that socialists have always fought for those social measures you mention it was actually a Tory (well coalition) government that commissioned the Beverage report in 1941 and it was Clement Atlee in 1945 who said he would implement the report in full. As an aside I believe it was LLoyd George with the backing of Winston Churchill who implemented the first state pension in 1908 or thereabouts. As for the comment about 'the wealthy' its perhaps a good thing to remember that many of the early socialists were actually that i.e. Weathly

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Of course. They say the first working class people to have any power in Britain were The Beatles in the 60s, and two of them were verging on middle class

So no surpise that there were no poor socialists.

I hear you have to go to Eton to get a chance in British politics nowadays, I wonder what their socialist credentials are like

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Yes, those those things have benefitted a lot of people. Both people who made legitimate contributions, and those who don't.

But it's also served to substantially lower the bar of what we need to contribute to sustain a prosperous life, which is arguably, a good thing. I'd argue that the system is more beneficial to those with resources, more than to those without.

Collectively, we now live pretty well without having to contribute nearly as much as our previous generations, but we have increasingly set expectations that we are still victims (despite our relative prosperity), entitled to receive increasingly more with decreasing contribution - and worse, those who do contribute more are increasingly penalised to enable those who contribute less - to enjoy similar benefits as those who do. That's very attractive to those who would prefer to contribute less and receive more. Welcome to human nature.

So, whilst it's nice to have all these benefits and entitlements, it also serves to de-motivate us, and make us increasingly vindictive of anyone who dares to reap the rewards of exceptional contribution.

At some point, the numbers don't add up anymore. And I think we're beginning to see it.

People want to prosper. But the more prosperity is penalised, the motivation to "get around" the many hurdles intended to "equalise" prosperity becomes pretty attractive - and therefore it's natural that we'd see increasingly "unethical" behaviour in pursuit of that.

- and I suspect that is what most people really object to, if not simply the inevitable jealousy of your neighbour who contributed many years of hard work and dedication, and rightly receives a couple million salary for establishing and managing a successful enterprise - even perfectly honest businesses - something that's extremely difficult to establish and manage in this era of increasing distrust, jealousy and vindictiveness against anyone who would manage to prosper in these tough times.

Think about it. Virtually no successful business (or politician, I might add) is free of harsh criticism from the public, no matter how they conduct their affairs - honestly or not, competently or not, it's no-win. Add to that the many regulations and restrictions imposed - Frankly I don't know how you could be in business these days without breaking some rules.

Christ, when the biggest news story is about the criminal politician whose wife took his speeding points, it just makes me pretty sad for the guy who can't sell his perfectly good vegetables to a German customer because he doesn't meet strict EU regulations designed to give the largest producers the advantage. And we're most worried about someone's wife taking their speeding points?

No, we aren't there yet, but if we continue on this path, we will eventually all be impoverished, and if history is any guide, a social dictatorship will likely be our saviour... you can already see the trend beginning.

Afterwards, the revolution to again become free and prosperous will start all over again.. And those who'd be first in line to destroy capitalism would also be the first in line to revolt against the alternative.

There's no poverty of irony these days.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

I don't think people are jealous and vindictive about people who work hard, take responsible and well-judged risks, and are successful as a result - and provide employment for other people in so doing. It is when people are perceived as receiving hugely disproportionate reward for having failed that others get angry, quite rightly so in my opinion.

Being a socialist does NOT mean that one believes everyone should be rewarded equally, whatever their contribution or lack of it. Take an organisation like the John Lewis Partnership, a wonderful business model and a successful one - every employee (or partner) receives the same percentage share of a bonus if the company does well, but a shop assistant is not paid the same amount in salary as the CEO, and nobody would suggest they should be. Nobody is more keen on the maintenance of pay differentials than a trade unionist!

However, when a bank CEO cuts thousands of low paid jobs in their organisation, outsources functions to cheap overseas labour resulting in a lower level of service to the customer, presides over stupid risks being taken with other people's money, makes bad decisions about takeovers, leaving the organisation having to be bailed out by the taxpayer,and then walks away with billions in bonuses and a massive pension, yes people are angry, why wouldn't they be?

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

thanks for trying to explain:thumbup: the skiing serario is a bit better but not much, because my take on the Cman senario is, that the skiers pay 30euros for the burger and chips.

But then not everyone in the ski resort is worth the same, so the boot cleaner and snow sweeper should pay 5 ish euros and the mega wealthy with their own ski lodge should pay loads more.



Chaos total chaos.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Here in London, if I fancy a burger and a beer I have plenty of places to choose from. Cheapest is Wetherspoons - but more expensive than the rest of the country at about £6. Other pubs are a tad more expensive and I'll be looking at £9 or so (and the Brake Bros burger won't be any better really). Then you get the gastro pubs where a burger and a pint will knock you back closer to £15, but it is probably decent meat! So you do have a choice, depending on the ambience and quality you are looking for.
The owners of a newly open bar have given me a VIP pass that entitles me to 10% off. Unfortunately they haven't started serving meals yet.
Like Spain, most bars will display a price list, so theoretically you cannot be over-charged. However in the last few weeks, we've twice had a bill for a meal that included far more drinks than we'd had (once in an Indian place, the other in a Portuguese establishment). In both cases we queried the bill and got it changed without any hassle. But I do wonder if it's a common attempt at a rip-off here, or just the waiters being overworked. :confused:
With the exception of a badly-staffed Valencian place, I can't remember being "over-charged" in a Spanish establishment, and as I mentioned earlier I was quite often "invited" to a free round by bar owners in Madrid. This used to happen years ago in the UK where regulars would get bought a round "on the house" every now and again. Sadly, since the rise of the pubco and the contraction of proper pubs, this seems quite rare nowadays.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

So it's a pub pissing contest we have now, eh.

There are so many variable factors that it's ridiculous trying to make a fair comparison, however as just one simple example, in view of the fact that most Spanish bars don't seem to have had a face lift or even a brass farthing spent on them in the last half a century and many much longer than that, it would be surprising if their costs and prices weren't lower than the UK on average.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

This is so true, and touches very much on the same themes as the Frugal living thread. That is why I'm prepared to say at the moment "I can't pay the 'English price' ". Because you have to identify yourself when it's assumed that all expats have money to throw around. To some it's a matter of pride to pay top whack for percieved luxury... Whether it be the number of stars on their hotel or the label on their sunglasses. To some (me included, I have to admit) it's almost a matter of pride *not* to do so. Well. If you aren't one of the 'haves' who are they to dictate where you get your "pride" from!;)
It may appear wrong on the surface that "they see you coming". But if you are a 'have' and want to be seen that way. it's an advert for the price you're prepared to pay.
Interesting job Cman. Must give you quite an insight into the psychology of spending.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

:goodpost: so true, both of you. Same product, different packaging and pricing aimed at different demographics. See it all the time.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

It happens here in our village I'm afraid.

One restaurant we went to when we first moved here more-or-less doubled our bill for food and drinks. We only realised later when it was too late to do anything. We simply didn't go back there and told everyone we knew - turns out it happens to everyone the restaurateur thinks isn't a local.

In another one a friend was with a group having beer and tapas and managed to get the initial bill of 80 Euros reduced in stages to a more realistic 25.

It's a pretty stupid way of trying to make money.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

You've completely missed the point.
As the ownership of pubs has changed, and the big breweries and pubcos have demanded ever increasing returns from their investment, the old style pub where you know the landlord and landlady (and they'd reward regular customers with the occasional drink on the house) has tended to disappear from the landscape. Although no doubt some will claim they still exist where they live, it's over 20 years since I was last offered a drink on the house in the UK.
Being invited to a drink by the bar owner has been fairly common to me in Spain in recent years, particularly in Madrid. I accept though this may be about to change, with the expansion of the chains like 100 Montaditos and Lizarran. More's the pity.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

It does seem foolish, when you spend so much on marketing and publicity to try and get customers to your establishment.
There again, maybe I'm tight, but I do tend to check the bill. I'm not capable nowadays of drinking a lot, so I tend to notice quickly if extra drinks have been added to the bill.
I am surprised this happens in a village too, as the offenders would quickly gain a poor reputation. I never noticed over-charging in Madrid establishments, but I'm sure it happens in some places. Maybe I've just been lucky (although as I mentioned previously the Guiri has a different rep in the capital and is perhaps seen as more of an asset-customer rather than one to fleece).

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

The "drink on the house" has always happened on the CDS at the end of a meal. Built into the price at tourist joints. Happens in Greece too.

Haven't come across different prices on the CDS...they fleece everyone equally:rofl: In the News cafe in Banus it was part of our entertainment watching peoples faces when they got the tab, especially the Spaniards:lol:

I was once in Albania for 3 days when it was under the old regime. I didn't take any cigarettes, expecting them to be dirt cheap. No shops, just kiosks...they wanted the equivalent of £5 for a pack! Mentioned it to a hotel waiter and he got them for me for less than 50p per pack!

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Yes, that's one of the reasons I've never been tempted to visit Marbella.

On reflection there is one place in Madrid where people have told me over-pricing is very common. The Plaza Mayor. Even the official prices for terrace sitting in the sun are sky-high. It's a great place to wander through, but if you fancy something to eat or drink, try a street or two away.

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You obviously go to all the wrong places Stevie, there again spending so much time in London what else do you expect ?
Either that or they remember your mush too well and think here comes that scrounger Stevie, looking for a freebie again. ;)

It's common enough practice in my neck of the woods.
I even get a meal on the house once in a while, meaning a proper meal not one of your scrattie tapas.

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Where it does happen legitimately is bars have different prices depending on where you sit.
At the bar , inside at a table or outside on the terrace.
Three areas three different prices

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Stevie. I'll give you a pint on the house anytime your down my way. As I do with lots of my regulars

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Can't say better than that :thumbsup:

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Yes, happens all over, you are not alone in noting a problem when it comes to getting served in a bar/restaurant. And these are people that love living in Spain, but still find it hard to fathom out.
http://dinzo.wordpress.com/guidetohell/
http://scribblerinseville.com/2012/0...ving-in-spain/

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

I must have been extremely lucky on various occasions spread over 25 years, even when living in Madrid then.
Even when I spent a month in Barcelona, in Gracia, a couple of bar-restaurants I went in were great - even started giving me free tapas with my drink which is very unusual in Barcelona.
There have been a couple of poor service examples I've found over the years (particularly one Valencian place), but I've generally found service in Spanish establishments a lot more prompt than in the UK, whether in London, Oxford or Nottingham. Especially the coffee. :D Getting served - nearly always a doddle. Paying the bill - a different matter altogether.

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Yes I can't relate either. Barcelona doesnt have very good customer service in the tourist areas, but...

We went to Santa Catalina market almost daily for almost 2 years. It is an excellent market and the people on the market stalls are knowledgeable and friendly

I suspect that the person from the blog has a face like a bulldog chewing a wasp and just doesnt know how to behave. Given that they have spent many times waiting "over half an hour to get served" it baffles me when a quick word in the ear of the waiter and a smile always works!

Re: Ono...work this one out.
 

Yes, it's back to that shabby Spanish customer service issue again.

In many respects they're still back in the dark ages, partly due to lack of training and inability to get their priorities right I suppose.

It's little surprise they chose a Spanish stereotype from Barcelona for Manuel in Fawlty Towers.:rofl:

I certainly don't hang around anywhere for half an hour waiting of service.
I just keep moving on till I eventually find a bar with helpful, considerate staff who have moved into the 21st century.
There are usually one or two,..... if you keep looking long enough.