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Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Our electricity is subject to constant RCD trips.
Constant - in the sense that we've been having them for years and have never managed to find the culprit. This problem,which is very common in Spain, is due to what is known as “nuisance tripping†–i.e. something, somewhere probably causes a leak to earth which cuts our supply by shutting the main protection RCD (or “trip†switch). https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nu....0.gCYYLNh6Fj4 99 times out of 100, we go straight to the fuse box and reset the switch without any further problem. Occasionally, it will not reset – therefore we assume that the fault is still present, but it never lasts longer than 5-10 minutes before we can reset it. Of course, if we’re away, the pool turns to pea soup and the freezer becomes a slime heap. It is possible that this fault is somewhere in our installation but we think it unlikely due to the random nature of the tripping. Sometimes it can be 2 months or more between “trips†but also it can be just 5 minutes, day or night, irrespective of what electrical devices are connected or working. 2 electricians I have spoken to have said that they could spend hours trying to find the fault and not succeed – especially as it is more likely to be located somewhere outside the property but somewhere in the neighbourhood. Therefore, probably due to the poor infrastructure of the electricity supply in our area (campo). There is a possible solution which is called a “residual current device recloser†– i.e. a replacement for our 25 amp RCD switch which will trip when a fault is detected but immediately reset the switch on if the fault has disappeared. So it literally “recloses†the circuit to reinstate the power supply. If the fault is still present, it remains off. There appears to be only one brand of this device in Spain – (Schneider) – and it is priced at approx. 200 euros. (Plus another 40/50 to fit it !). According to an electrician in the UK, this type of device would not meet the necessary safety standards and they are not available there. Does anyone have experience of these devices ? |
Re:Nuisance electrical tripping
Originally Posted by Loco Pedro
(Post 12352607)
Our electricity is subject to constant RCD trips.
Constant - in the sense that we've been having them for years and have never managed to find the culprit. This problem,which is very common in Spain, is due to what is known as “nuisance tripping†–i.e. something, somewhere probably causes a leak to earth which cuts our supply by shutting the main protection RCD (or “trip†switch). https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nu....0.gCYYLNh6Fj4 99 times out of 100, we go straight to the fuse box and reset the switch without any further problem. Occasionally, it will not reset – therefore we assume that the fault is still present, but it never lasts longer than 5-10 minutes before we can reset it. Of course, if we’re away, the pool turns to pea soup and the freezer becomes a slime heap. It is possible that this fault is somewhere in our installation but we think it unlikely due to the random nature of the tripping. Sometimes it can be 2 months or more between “trips†but also it can be just 5 minutes, day or night, irrespective of what electrical devices are connected or working. 2 electricians I have spoken to have said that they could spend hours trying to find the fault and not succeed – especially as it is more likely to be located somewhere outside the property but somewhere in the neighbourhood. Therefore, probably due to the poor infrastructure of the electricity supply in our area (campo). There is a possible solution which is called a “residual current device recloser†– i.e. a replacement for our 25 amp RCD switch which will trip when a fault is detected but immediately reset the switch on if the fault has disappeared. So it literally “recloses†the circuit to reinstate the power supply. If the fault is still present, it remains off. There appears to be only one brand of this device in Spain – (Schneider) – and it is priced at approx. 200 euros. (Plus another 40/50 to fit it !). According to an electrician in the UK, this type of device would not meet the necessary safety standards and they are not available there. Does anyone have experience of these devices ? Although 68 people have looked at my thread, there are no replies. Hence I'm changing the title in the hope that I attract the attention of someone with the experience I need. Ah - I see that hasn't worked. I don't know how to edit the title of the original post. |
re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
I can change it for you, just tell me what you want it altered to.
Rosemary |
re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
I really don't think this is a good idea.
Have your wiring checked and repaired. Any competent electrician should be able to measure the resistance to earth and identify which circuit(s) is causing the issue and repair / replace it. Are you are the only one experiencing tripping? Have you spoken with your neighbours? PS: Avoid exPat unqualified electricians |
re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Rosemary
(Post 12354109)
I can change it for you, just tell me what you want it altered to.
Rosemary Thank you. |
re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by missile
(Post 12354114)
I really don't think this is a good idea.
Have your wiring checked and repaired. Any competent electrician should be able to measure the resistance to earth and identify which circuit(s) is causing the issue and repair / replace it. Are you are the only one experiencing tripping? Have you spoken with your neighbours? PS: Avoid exPat unqualified electricians The trip sometimes also occurs with our neighbour. Generally, I avoid ex-pat contractors in general as they tend to be here today & gone tomorrow. I'm really interested for your recommendation for a local Spanish electrician who can eliminate the problem so efficiently. We are near Denia. I assume I've only spoken to INcompetent electricians thus far ! |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
I'm very surprised it's the main RCD that trips and not one for a specific circuit.
Is it overload perhaps? I agree with the previous post, a GOOD electrician should be able to isolate the circuit and then the device (if it's not the actual cabling). |
Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Loco Pedro
(Post 12354162)
As the fault is so intermittent, it is hard to locate - so say several electricians. German, English, Spanish alike.
The trip sometimes also occurs with our neighbour. Generally, I avoid ex-pat contractors in general as they tend to be here today & gone tomorrow. I'm really interested for your recommendation for a local Spanish electrician who can eliminate the problem so efficiently. We are near Denia. I assume I've only spoken to INcompetent electricians thus far ! You must know RCD is there for your safety and should not trip unless there is an overload / earth leakage? This makes sense to me. According to an electrician in the UK, this type of device would not meet the necessary safety standards |
Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by missile
(Post 12354236)
You did not say "several" you said two and have not said whether those are qualified? I would suggest you consult a reputable, long established, Spanish company. There are several in Denia.
You must know RCD is there for your safety and should not trip unless there is an overload / earth leakage? This makes sense to me. Snikpoh has suggested you may simply be overloading your circuit breaker. What potencia do you have installed? We have an ICP and smart meter. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
5.75kW should be enough to prevent nuisance tripping on a domestic supply.
Please check and advise the rating on the RCD |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Loco Pedro
(Post 12352607)
Our electricity is subject to constant RCD trips.
Constant - in the sense that we've been having them for years and have never managed to find the culprit. This problem,which is very common in Spain, is due to what is known as “nuisance tripping†–i.e. something, somewhere probably causes a leak to earth which cuts our supply by shutting the main protection RCD (or “trip†switch). https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nu....0.gCYYLNh6Fj4 99 times out of 100, we go straight to the fuse box and reset the switch without any further problem. Occasionally, it will not reset – therefore we assume that the fault is still present, but it never lasts longer than 5-10 minutes before we can reset it. Of course, if we’re away, the pool turns to pea soup and the freezer becomes a slime heap. It is possible that this fault is somewhere in our installation but we think it unlikely due to the random nature of the tripping. Sometimes it can be 2 months or more between “trips†but also it can be just 5 minutes, day or night, irrespective of what electrical devices are connected or working. 2 electricians I have spoken to have said that they could spend hours trying to find the fault and not succeed – especially as it is more likely to be located somewhere outside the property but somewhere in the neighbourhood. Therefore, probably due to the poor infrastructure of the electricity supply in our area (campo). There is a possible solution which is called a “residual current device recloser†– i.e. a replacement for our 25 amp RCD switch which will trip when a fault is detected but immediately reset the switch on if the fault has disappeared. So it literally “recloses†the circuit to reinstate the power supply. If the fault is still present, it remains off. There appears to be only one brand of this device in Spain – (Schneider) – and it is priced at approx. 200 euros. (Plus another 40/50 to fit it !). According to an electrician in the UK, this type of device would not meet the necessary safety standards and they are not available there. Does anyone have experience of these devices ? |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by missile
(Post 12354248)
5.75kW should be enough to prevent nuisance tripping on a domestic supply.
Please check and advise the rating on the RCD |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Loco Pedro
(Post 12354243)
5.75 kW is shown on our bills.
We have an ICP and smart meter. Is it the MAIN RCD? As suggested it may not be correctly rated. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by snikpoh
(Post 12354294)
The ICP is now redundant as it is now built in to the smart meter.
Is it the MAIN RCD? As suggested it may not be correctly rated. In fact, both the ICP & the main trip are 25 amp. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Loco Pedro
(Post 12354307)
In fact, both the ICP & the main trip are 25 amp.
We're on 5.75 as well. ICP is/was 25A Main RCD is 32A |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by snikpoh
(Post 12354320)
We're on 5.75 as well.
ICP is/was 25A Main RCD is 32A The smart meter was installed only 2/3 years ago. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Loco Pedro
(Post 12354286)
25amp
I am very surprised your electricians did not ask about this? |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Hola
Over the years, I have had the electric trip out for no reason. However earlier this year it became weekly or more frequently so I had the main trip switch itself changed and had no further problems. Davexf |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Dxf
(Post 12354480)
Hola
Over the years, I have had the electric trip out for no reason. However earlier this year it became weekly or more frequently so I had the main trip switch itself changed and had no further problems. Davexf I am informed that 25 amp should be sufficient for 5.75 kW potencia (= 23 amp). 25 amp is on the limit for this supply, but it isn't our consumption which causes the trips (so I am informed by an electrical engineer). However, I'm interested to know if you uprated your fuse or merely changed it for a new one. I guess they can get old and tired, but our trips are no more frequent now than they have been for 10 years. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Usually if the RCD trips without any of the other circiuts tripping its an earth leakage/insulation breakdown problem. We had spate of these when one of the elements in the cooker was on its way out. As it's so intermittant its probably not a practical proposition to isolate each circuit in turn to identify the culprit. Most common device after the cooker is an immersion heater. A good tip was the faulty RCD itself. If you can't work it out then you will need a qualified electrician with an earth leak detector (bridge megga). Don't hire the one who says it could be anywhere in the neighbourhood as the RCD works on the downstream side.
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Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
I can't see how a sparks would tell you the problem could be somewhere in you neighbourhood , your RCD protects your circuits and no one else's.
have you tried isolating a circuit at a time when it's being trip happy by flipping the MCB, do you have many outside electrics , lights etc as water from rain or condensation will trip a RCD, |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Loco Pedro
(Post 12354771)
I am informed that 25 amp should be sufficient for 5.75 kW potencia (= 23 amp). ....
So your 25A breaker is right on the edge, and the advice you were given earlier, to uprate it, is the correct advice.
Originally Posted by Longlegpete
(Post 12355958)
I can't see how a sparks would tell you the problem could be somewhere in you neighbourhood , your RCD protects your circuits and no one else's. .....
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Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
The RCD is not a MCB , the amps are a rating for the maximum potential to run through the RCD it's not as with the MCB a current rating for it to blow, presuming the RCD is tripping when they are away as has been said they are not drawing huge current anyway, the RCD simply measures leakage to earth
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Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Longlegpete
(Post 12356036)
The RCD is not a MCB , the amps are a rating for the maximum potential to run through the RCD it's not as with the MCB a current rating for it to blow, presuming the RCD is tripping when they are away as has been said they are not drawing huge current anyway, the RCD simply measures leakage to earth
I have that issue with one circuit. It only feeds two pairs of sockets, and I have replaced both sockets and the RCD breaker, and the problem still persists. :( My electrician says it is likely a manufscturing flaw in the cable or a bad instalation - a nail or screw through the cable somewhere. :( But I am not interested in having the house torn apart to have a new cable installed. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Longlegpete
(Post 12355958)
I can't see how a sparks would tell you the problem could be somewhere in you neighbourhood , your RCD protects your circuits and no one else's.
have you tried isolating a circuit at a time when it's being trip happy by flipping the MCB, do you have many outside electrics , lights etc as water from rain or condensation will trip a RCD, Oh - if only it were "trip-happy". We could have solved it years ago. Trips occur day or night, winter or summer, rain or shine, everything connected, nothing running - and can be 2 or 3 times in 1 day or not for 2 or 3 months. When we go away, we empty the freezer, unplug it and the immersion heater. But we almost always return to a "tripped" supply after a few days or week - but sometimes not. Its that erratic. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Pulaski
(Post 12356007)
But 5.75kW isn't 23A @ 230v (which is the mains voltage in Spain), it is 25A. Divide the watts by the voltage to get the amps.
So your 25A breaker is right on the edge, and the advice you were given earlier, to uprate it, is the correct advice. Well if something causes a voltage spike then the current would also increase and could trip the breaker, especially as it is literally on the edge of the required value. This seems like a very logical explanation and tends to support the theory that the fault is not necessarily "downstream" and could be the result of external influence - i.e. voltage spikes, which I believe are common here in the campo especially. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
If you can't find a fault then maybe it's a faulty RCD ? , also on your consumer unit do you have 3 phases coming in?
We sometimes get the RCD trip, in fact it went yesterday but we had a few hours of very heavy rain so could have been a mains spike but that's the first time in around 9 months , any priority services ie, alarm I've put on a none RCD protected circuit, still protected by MCB but not a problem if we are away, we live in the UK so this is often the case |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Apart from the RCD you will most likely have a number of fuses, mcb's protecting various curcuits.
Try turning off each circuit in turn for as long as possible ( days ) and see if the RCD still trips If it does then the turned off circuit is unlikely to be the suspect, if not you have narrowed the problem down. Hopefully there is only one suspect circuit. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Fredbargate
(Post 12356270)
Apart from the RCD you will most likely have a number of fuses, mcb's protecting various curcuits.
Try turning off each circuit in turn for as long as possible ( days ) and see if the RCD still trips If it does then the turned off circuit is unlikely to be the suspect, if not you have narrowed the problem down. Hopefully there is only one suspect circuit. This is not a practical option as we can go for weeks/months without a trip. As for incoming phases, I have no idea. Its a regular 5.75kW supply to a house in the campo - as far as I know. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Loco Pedro
(Post 12356303)
This is not a practical option as we can go for weeks/months without a trip.
As for incoming phases, I have no idea. Its a regular 5.75kW supply to a house in the campo - as far as I know. ISTR 5.2 is 3-phase |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Pulaski
(Post 12356049)
Ooops, yes. :o
I have that issue with one circuit. It only feeds two pairs of sockets, and I have replaced both sockets and the RCD breaker, and the problem still persists. :( My electrician says it is likely a manufscturing flaw in the cable or a bad instalation - a nail or screw through the cable somewhere. :( But I am not interested in having the house torn apart to have a new cable installed. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by missile
(Post 12356411)
You have identified the faulty circuit and if your electrical system has been installed correctly, you can pull the wire through to replace that circuit. Should be cheap and easy fix :thumbsup:
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/b1/8a/76/b...ng-the-box.jpg |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Pulaski
(Post 12356444)
In America the original wiring installed in a new house is held in place inside the timber-framed "stud" walls using clips or staples, and often passes through fairly tight holes drilled through the studs, so there is almost no chance that a new cable could be "pulled through" :( At a minimum it would mean two sizeable holes cut in the plasterboard walls in the garage.
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/b1/8a/76/b...ng-the-box.jpg |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by missile
(Post 12356448)
In Spain wiring is routed through conduits and there are junction boxes in the walls providing access. Or at least that is how it ought to be done :unsure:
Like the 12kW immersion heater in my house in London wired in to a spur from a 13A socket ..... connected to the lighting circuit! I discovered that when I noticed one day that the 13A surface-mount socket was quite warm! :scaredhair: |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Pulaski
(Post 12356451)
Conduits can be used in America, but they very rarely are. After owning houses in the UK and the US, I know from personal experience that there are many occasions when reality deviates from "how things ought to be done". :(
Like the 12kW immersion heater in my house in London wired in to a spur from a 13A socket ..... connected to the lighting circuit! I discovered that when I noticed one day that the 13A surface-mount socket was quite warm! :scaredhair: |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Longlegpete
(Post 12356036)
The RCD is not a MCB , the amps are a rating for the maximum potential to run through the RCD it's not as with the MCB a current rating for it to blow, presuming the RCD is tripping when they are away as has been said they are not drawing huge current anyway, the RCD simply measures leakage to earth
As the consensus of opinion is that I should uprate the RCD to 32 amp, I have been out looking for one. There appears to be 25 & 40 - but no 32 amp. I have bought a standard 32 amp bipolar circuit breaker as I thought it was not sensible to uprate to 40 amp. But as I don't really understand your comment (in terms of practical usage), I'd appreciate your comments on whether this will suffice for job, situated as it will be in the position of the old 25 amp RCD immediately next to the first breaker (25 amp) to which the incoming mains are connected. Surely it will stop the nuisance tripping but will it switch off if there is a short to earth anywhere ? Failing that, I'll take it back for a refund and order a 32 amp RCD from England. Thanks to all for their valuable contributions to my question. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Originally Posted by Loco Pedro
(Post 12357718)
As the consensus of opinion is that I should uprate the RCD to 32 amp, I have been out looking for one.
There appears to be 25 & 40 - but no 32 amp. I have bought a standard 32 amp bipolar circuit breaker as I thought it was not sensible to uprate to 40 amp. But as I don't really understand your comment (in terms of practical usage), I'd appreciate your comments on whether this will suffice for job, situated as it will be in the position of the old 25 amp RCD immediately next to the first breaker (25 amp) to which the incoming mains are connected. Surely it will stop the nuisance tripping but will it switch off if there is a short to earth anywhere ? Failing that, I'll take it back for a refund and order a 32 amp RCD from England. Thanks to all for their valuable contributions to my question. Further research on the web suggests this could be a fatal error so I guess I'll return it and upgrade to a 40 amp RCD. That has to be the safer option. |
Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
The RCD detects leakage to earth, it's not a MCB which is effectively a modern fuse, the rating of 25 amps on an RCD is the load it can carry up to, the milliamp rating is what controls the tripping of the RCD, normally a 25amp RCD will be 30mamp trip, you could try a RCD with a higher trip rating, if there was a direct short to earth or live to N then the MCB would trip which as I understand it they are not
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Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
Actually the clue may be in the OP. Where it says that the trip occurs when the OP is away and only the fridge/freezer and pool are in use. FFS are notorious for insulation problems when they get older and pool pumps do get a lot of exposure too.
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Re: Nuisance Electricity Tripping
That's not what OP said, it happens when they are there as well as when they are away, incidentally the reason I asked OP and the phases coming into the house was I assumed he would be like us, we have 3 phases coming in and just use the phases separately so are still on 230v.
If they are on single phase and the supply is phased like the UK there is a chance a neighbours supply can trip his RCD |
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