JLFS

Not exactly castration, coz that is done on the male variety, and she was talking about the female version, but I get your point.

I find it hard to believe though that the incident happened 5 years ago, and yet the level of understanding has not improved since then, because the sme misunderstanding continued

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the lawyers office when they refused to sign the papers, the notary must have thought they were completly mental, talk about the wrong end of the stick........
The must have looked like complet numpties.

I still havent had an answer as to what crime they thought that punishment would be used for...........shoplifting, illegal possesion of weed...

amideislas

Sorry, I guess you're right.

Around here (rural Mallorca), you can rent an old finca with 200+ square meters for as little as €100 a month. In New York city, you can easily pay $10000/mo for a luxury park avenue apartment with only 80 square meters. In central London, the same might be as much as £5000 per month.

Just goes to show how ridiculously cheaper things are here than in the US or the UK.

Lynn R

Maybe for non-payment of electricity bills, and that's the reason for the paranoia about utility companies?

Anyone who can't resolve a little local difficulty about their utility bills doesn't need to be lecturing the rest of us about macro-economics, IMO.

amideislas

Well, let's have a look at the latest factura from Endesa.

Let's see. The factura for November-December 2011, is €878,14 The meter readings are, as usual, "estimado".

Our actual meter readings prove that the billing for consumption should be about €160, plus all the various "permisos", rental of the ICP (which we paid for and own outright), plus IVA comes to about €240.

In ritualistic bi-monthly fashion, hubby waited in the queue for 1.5 hours at the Endesa office this morning (this was a good day, usually it's over 2 hours) to dispute the bill with the actual meter readings. Afterwards he usually has a coffee with the friends and neighbours also waiting in the queue to dispute their facturas.

What happens next is so predictable, it's laughable.

Tomorrow morning, I will receive the usual very pretty and professionally crafted computer-generated letter of apology for any inconvenience caused by any error on Endesa's part, and an assurance that the matter will be addressed with the highest priority.

In about 10 days, I will receive a "corrected" factura. What isn't predictable is whether the factura is actually corrected to reflect actual consumption, or whether they will choose to simply re-issue the same factura for €878,14, but declared as "real" instead of "estimado", despite having no relationship to what the meter says whatsoever.

If the new factura is actually corrected and accurate, I will immediately pay the bill and be done with it, although as evidenced by last year's behaviour, Endesa may choose to later re-bill the same months and meter readings under a different factura number, in which case I will be forced to pay it again, with no recourse whatsoever.

In the latter case where the same factura is issued again, hubby will need to again take the uncorrected factura and wait in the queue again to file another dispute using the actual meter readings. It may take 6 weeks or so, but eventually they will change the factura to reflect the actual consumption.

In the mean time, we will receive a certified letter warning us that unless we pay €878,14 within 4 weeks or so, our service will be disconnected. Usually, we manage to get them to change the factura long before the cutoff date.

This is the normal ritual with virtually every factura issued by Endesa, and after years of trying to find some legal way to get them to stop this practice, we have finally realised there simply isn't any chance of changing this practice. It's simply part of living in Spain.

So, if you want to say that the problem is non-payment, you're actually technically accurate. We simply refuse to pay their grossly over-inflated "estimado" facturas, because as history has repeatedly proven, we would have to file a series of denuncias in order to receive any refund for it.

So, maybe that kind of extortive style of fleecing us of our money may be acceptable for some, for me, it's simply unacceptable. And this is our only way of avoiding it.

cricketman

The problem is you are always speaking as if everyone in Spain experiences this. I havent and I dont know anyone who has.

I know I had huge problems in the UK with NTL World who kept charging me for things I hadnt taken out. Dozens of phone calls later it still wasnt resolved until I moved house!

But I dont go on and on about how corrupt the UK is because NTL were "fleecing me". Many companies are incompetent especially if you get the "computer says no" type, doesnt matter where you live

You seem to be taking all your problems and blaming them on a country. Always the tell-tale sign of an unhappy individual

amideislas

With all due respect, we don't know anyone who hasn't experienced this, and it's the normal ritual here. In fact, you don't have to search far to find plenty of examples. Endesa is fined about €900K per year for these and other practices, but it doesn't take an accountant to figure out that a €900K fine is actually quite a nice perk for them.

The main problem (in our case) is that when the ICP was installed, were were forced to accept a 10.8Kw contract, which as it turns out, Endesa had no legal right to force us to accept. We were assured that the "upgrade" to 10.8Kw (from our previous 50A 3-phase service) would be free of charge, plus 6c per month "rental" of the ICP. Funny, it turns out that anything above 10Kw is not regulated by law, and Endesa essentially has a licence to charge or enforce any policy they see fit.

Surprise! - The "free" installation was €175, the "free" contract change was €290, and the ICP rental is 10c per day (and I own the damn thing!). Oh, and I also forgot ... we also had to have a "boletin" issued that states the property is safe for 10.8Kw service. That was €250, and nobody ever came to the property to inspect anything. Some engineer simply stamped a paper and charged €250 for it.

After being advised by a professional electrician not affiliated with Endesa that we can indeed have a contract of less than 10.8Kw, we've been trying to change the contract since October. Endesa has continually dragged their feet, and only last week received a clear response from them regarding installation costs, rates, and so on. I've asked them to commence. I expect by April or May, we might even get the lower contract. We shall see.

My only fear is that we've been again assured the installation is "gratuito" and that no "boletin" will be required. I will therefore be expecting another bill for €300, €400 or more, and another €250 for some faceless engineer to stamp a document stating that it's safe to "downgrade" our power.

Welcome to Spain.

EDit: to address your assertion that the problem is simply that we're "unhappy": I can assure you, the only "unhappiness" we harbour is that this and plenty of other unethical practices which WE pay for, are apparently perfectly acceptable. I'm sure this kind of thing happens in other places on this planet, but we've never experienced anywhere near this level of blatent extortion, freely deliberate misrepresentation, nor the apathetic, lax enforcement and unwillingness to do anything about it - in any country we've ever lived.

So, yes, we're not happy about that and a couple of other particular issues clearly resulting from corruption in Spain, but after years of this crap, we're now beginning to resolve it to simply "when in Rome". Just like everybody else...

bostonlady

Sure you can also get mouth wash if thats to your linking.

bostonlady

Question for you; do you still live in Spain??

tex_ritter

How much is a bottle of Thunderbird these days

California produces some fine wines as does Spain, they also produce some real rot gut brews...as does Spain. If your a wine drinker you should be pleasantly surprised at the price of a good 'everyday' wine in Spain If you like bubbles in your glass try some of the Cava sparkling wines, some are really top notch.

amideislas

You'll understand after the first year of living here.

Domino

wine price differences show the amount of tax taken by the different Governments.

one problem is once a label becomes known they are always trying to "improve" it. IMHO this isnt possible as a crop has a one off life and the following year(s) will always taste slightly different.

I know Spain has some real rot-gut at abt €1/litre but for only a few cents extra there is a very good selection, confirming that Spain only exports the wines it doesnt want for itself.

cricketman

I only mentioned wine because there was a story in the Spanish news about a Galician wine that won "budget wine of the year" in the US annual wine guide. It sells there for $10 per bottle

The winery couldnt believe it, they said that wine is only meant for cooking and sells for around 1 euro in Spain. They then got some Spanish wine experts who basically said the Yanks hadnt a clue what they were talking about

My SIL gives wine tours in the midwest, she knows nothing about wine. When she came here I wanted her to try the Malaga sweet wines. She said they tasted "like schnapps"

Domino

the Yanks are wine snobs - more than the Brits
look at all the rubbish wines they flood the world market with !
I always used to find it annoying and sad that potential movers and shakers like Tesco et al would end up filling their shelves with Californian leaving no space for "old world" wines from Spain, Italy, even Greece and Crete.
This doesnt seem to me to be a thought out bringing wine to the masses, more a form of corruption in that the buyers are getting better discounts from the US and yet the prices are not that good to the consumer.
It is little more than glug-juice for the fridge and to make friends think they are cosmopolitan. The more discerning find it hard to get a good wine.

Alcampo had a a promotion of Madrid wines just before Christmas, very good stuff and abt €3 a bottle against the normal €6

amideislas

When we lived in Belgium long ago, Stella Artois was the cheapest beer available (about 25c per pint). It was widely regarded as the worst of Belgian beers, but it was also the most popular because it was so cheap.

Then it was marketed in the US as a "premium" "European" brand, selling for $3, $4, $5 per pint. Today it's considered a rather "premium" brand virtually everywhere.

Ahh, the beauty of a good marketing campaign.

We are true lovers of Spanish wines and as Spanish residents, enjoy paying ridiculously low prices for them, but after sampling some of the "real" premium California wines, I'd have to say the Californians do indeed understand the art of fine winemaking.

Yes, Spanish wines are much more expensive outside of Spain. Just the same as the cheapest and worst California wines (e.g., "gallo") are sold as "premium" brands here (if you can get them at all).

No wonder Europeans believe California wines are crap. The cheapest and worst California wines are the about only thing you can get here, and they're expensive.

Rosemary

I have no experience of the Spain that you describe in your posts. I have never had to pay for things that are advertised as free, do not have a problem with our telephone supplier, no problem with our electricity supplier, no problem with trademen or anyone else.

I know that corruption exists everywhere in the world so do not seek to find out how bad it is in the country that I have chosen to settle in. I tend to speak as I find and everything in my area appears to be on a level, the people are great and my town does appear to be doing OK considering the crisis.

Obviously different areas will have different suppliers and different experiences for people.

Rosemary