Modern languages in decline
#17
Re: Modern languages in decline
well Mandarin - the language of the Chinese beauracrats advising the Emperor - has been around for over 800 years and is taking a long while to "come into its own" - probably declining due to outside influences.
Cantonese is more common and spoken prolifically due to the Hong Kong influence
Cantonese is more common and spoken prolifically due to the Hong Kong influence
#18
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
Re: Modern languages in decline
"In this provocative and persuasive new book, Nicholas Ostler challenges our assumption that English will continue to dominate as the global lingua franca. Like this from Goethe though :
"He who is not acquainted with foreign languages knows nothing of his own."
If I had a teenage child I'd be encouraging him/her to learn mandarin.
People forget that only 30 years ago French had an equal or larger impact internationally than English. English too will fade and something else will come. If it is Mandarin then that will come with the fall of the Amero-European dominance of the past 500 years and will mean a completely new world order
Problem is for someone who only speaks English, jumping straight to learning Madarin is very difficult. Stilll, the Japanese and Chinese do a good job at learning English. Maybe rich European parents will be sending their children to university in Beijing in 20 years time?
The "English is the international language" argument is just used by lazy and ignorant British and American people anyway
#19
Re: Modern languages in decline
"Why learn another language when you can use Google translate?"
Google's fine for lots of everyday, straightforward words, but useless at many others. Take the Spanish "caudaloso", for which English hasn't got a useful word; it refers to a river's quantity of water. Or the word "sarmiento" which Google translates as 'branch', but in Spanish is the word for vine cuttings that are used on a BBQ.
"He who is not acquainted with foreign languages knows nothing of his own."
Very true. A pity our children aren't taught English in the way foreigners learn it; eg the difference between 'countable & uncountable nouns'. That would stop people saying things like "less people" instead of the correct "fewer people".
They would also learn that "tomatoe's 80p /lb", "two DVD's for £5" or "there were lot's of car's" is incorrect.
I understand the attraction of learning Mandarin (population, business etc), but perhaps after they have an appreciation of 1 European language, whether French, Spanish, Persian or Russian.
Google's fine for lots of everyday, straightforward words, but useless at many others. Take the Spanish "caudaloso", for which English hasn't got a useful word; it refers to a river's quantity of water. Or the word "sarmiento" which Google translates as 'branch', but in Spanish is the word for vine cuttings that are used on a BBQ.
"He who is not acquainted with foreign languages knows nothing of his own."
Very true. A pity our children aren't taught English in the way foreigners learn it; eg the difference between 'countable & uncountable nouns'. That would stop people saying things like "less people" instead of the correct "fewer people".
They would also learn that "tomatoe's 80p /lb", "two DVD's for £5" or "there were lot's of car's" is incorrect.
I understand the attraction of learning Mandarin (population, business etc), but perhaps after they have an appreciation of 1 European language, whether French, Spanish, Persian or Russian.
quite how it got there from 'buen viaje'
I ran it through myself & lo & behold it did!! - but if you just put the 2 words in without the rest of the message it does it OK
must be lost in context.............
#21
Re: Modern languages in decline
Problem is for someone who only speaks English, jumping straight to learning Madarin is very difficult. Stilll, the Japanese and Chinese do a good job at learning English. Maybe rich European parents will be sending their children to university in Beijing in 20 years time?
It's not an option - it is part of the mandatory curriculum.
It starts at 5 years old.
#22
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,368
Re: Modern languages in decline
I think much of that is tosh, though I agree Mandarin could come into its own one day.
English is certainly not in retreat at the present time, in fact much the opposite is very apparent almost worldwide and as far as being consigned to the history books, though not beyond the bounds of all possibilities, I would think at least centuries into the future, ......if anyone is still around.
English is certainly not in retreat at the present time, in fact much the opposite is very apparent almost worldwide and as far as being consigned to the history books, though not beyond the bounds of all possibilities, I would think at least centuries into the future, ......if anyone is still around.
http://www.notesfromspain.com/forums...ead.php?t=4534
#23
Re: Modern languages in decline
[QUOTE=cricketman;10230783
The "English is the international language" argument is just used by lazy and ignorant British and American people anyway[/QUOTE]
What absolute tosh.
The fact is that most of Europe has made huge strides in the last twenty years to learn English which they have come to accept as the international language, essential in so many walks of life such as worldwide travel, Internet, business which now occurs much more on an international basis and other things too numerous to mention.
During this time it's the" lazy and ignorant " Spanish who have found themselves left way behind in the world order.
Belatedly the penny seems to have dropped and many of them are now desperate to learn and catch up.
About the only place I see them queuing these days is outside the door of English Language centres desperate to get a place on courses that are increasingly fully booked.
I think the fact that some of the locals have even resorted to asking me for help, for what little use I would be, amply demonstrates just how desperately important they now finally realise it is.
The "English is the international language" argument is just used by lazy and ignorant British and American people anyway[/QUOTE]
What absolute tosh.
The fact is that most of Europe has made huge strides in the last twenty years to learn English which they have come to accept as the international language, essential in so many walks of life such as worldwide travel, Internet, business which now occurs much more on an international basis and other things too numerous to mention.
During this time it's the" lazy and ignorant " Spanish who have found themselves left way behind in the world order.
Belatedly the penny seems to have dropped and many of them are now desperate to learn and catch up.
About the only place I see them queuing these days is outside the door of English Language centres desperate to get a place on courses that are increasingly fully booked.
I think the fact that some of the locals have even resorted to asking me for help, for what little use I would be, amply demonstrates just how desperately important they now finally realise it is.
Last edited by Dick Dasterdly; Aug 16th 2012 at 6:19 am.
#24
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: May 2009
Location: Alicante province
Posts: 5,753
Re: Modern languages in decline
Within Europe, English is not only the business language, but the language for everything else as well, e.g. politics, show business etc.
It winds up the Germans, but their schools teach English from an early age. The Spanish never bothered much in the past, but they're desperate now. And the French? They still think the rest of the world should speak French, like they do in Quebec and Haiti.
It winds up the Germans, but their schools teach English from an early age. The Spanish never bothered much in the past, but they're desperate now. And the French? They still think the rest of the world should speak French, like they do in Quebec and Haiti.
#25
Re: Modern languages in decline
The problem with everyone else speaking English is its made us a very lazy nation for learning other languages - which is very embarassing and as a country it makes us look very arrogant xxxxx
#26
Re: Modern languages in decline
However it's not happened as a result of any actions by the present generation, so why the hell should we feel guilty ?
#27
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
Re: Modern languages in decline
English was nowhere near as important 50 years ago. The spread of English around the world was first through the colonies, but its modern relevance is due to the spread of the US business model especially through marketing with its nonsense jargon designed deliberately to confuse and being untranslatable in other languages (I work in marketing, the world would be a better place without it!)
Its the US corporations who push the use of English both at the business and consumer level. Now its pretty accepted that anyone at a professional or manager level who deals with people overseas must speak English. Through marketing now you must speak English to order a burger at McDs or drink a CocaCola in any country
This is nothing to do with English being a better language. It is a result of the US being in an incredibly strong position politically and economy after WWII when all the other major powers had nearly wiped themselves out, and the US came out relatively unscathed. Look at the US role in the rebuilding of Germany and Korea for example and you will understand why they wanted to do the same in Iraq and Afghanistan
Last edited by cricketman; Aug 16th 2012 at 7:46 am.
#28
Re: Modern languages in decline
How did you come to that conclusion?
English was nowhere near as important 50 years ago. The spread of English around the world was first through the colonies, but its modern relevance is due to the spread of the US business model especially through marketing with its nonsense jargon designed deliberately to confuse and being untranslatable in other languages (I work in marketing, the world would be a better place without it!)
Its the US corporations who push the use of English both at the business and consumer level. Now its pretty accepted that anyone at a professional or manager level who deals with people overseas must speak English. Through marketing now you must speak English to order a burger at McDs or drink a CocaCola in any country
This is nothing to do with English being a better language. It is a result of the US being in an incredibly strong position politically and economy after WWII when all the other major powers had nearly wiped themselves out, and the US came out relatively unscathed. Look at the US role in the rebuilding of Germany and Korea for example and you will understand why they wanted to do the same in Iraq and Afghanistan
English was nowhere near as important 50 years ago. The spread of English around the world was first through the colonies, but its modern relevance is due to the spread of the US business model especially through marketing with its nonsense jargon designed deliberately to confuse and being untranslatable in other languages (I work in marketing, the world would be a better place without it!)
Its the US corporations who push the use of English both at the business and consumer level. Now its pretty accepted that anyone at a professional or manager level who deals with people overseas must speak English. Through marketing now you must speak English to order a burger at McDs or drink a CocaCola in any country
This is nothing to do with English being a better language. It is a result of the US being in an incredibly strong position politically and economy after WWII when all the other major powers had nearly wiped themselves out, and the US came out relatively unscathed. Look at the US role in the rebuilding of Germany and Korea for example and you will understand why they wanted to do the same in Iraq and Afghanistan
If you prefer to put some of it down to the US it still wouldn't have happened had it never been a British colony.
Well the fact that you finally accept it, is at least one step forward and as I said its not the responsibility of the present generation of Brits, so I don't see any reason at all to feel guilty about the way the cookies crumbled.