gedscottish

Who said it was the Russians or pro Russians who did this? 10 minutes after the crash we have confirmation of what happened, really?

Fredbargate

The present situation will eventually be whitewashed over.

Too many financial considerations will mean that long term there will be few if any meaningful reprisals.

Spain relies heavily on Russian money from the tourists to the servicing of Russian warships in Ceuta and Melillia

France does not want to be left with a couple of aircraft carriers she can not deliver.

Too much of Europe is reliant on Russian gas and other energy sources.

The shouting and indignation will disappear fairly quickly and "KING MONEY " will reign again.

EMR

The UK also has exiting agreements to supply military equipment and services leaving DC with egg on his face.
The US now says that Russias finger was not on the button !!

amideislas

The US said they cannot establish evidence directly linking Russian military to the actual firing of the missile. They do say the evidence strongly points to the rebels having made a "mistake".

But there still is the question of the source of sophisticated missiles (and operators) capable of reaching that jet, which Russia denies it supplies to the rebels.

Yes, the Ukrainian military has them, but none have been moved to the eastern front, gone missing or captured, yet the missile was fired from deep within rebel-held territory.

So, if it was some diabolical attempt by Ukrainian military to smear the rebels, how does one possibly sneak a missile battery of that class into rebel territory without being captured? (they aren't exactly pocket-sized). And there was that intercepted phone conversation between rebel commanders... in Russian...

No, not a smoking gun, but all of it strongly suggests the Ukrainian military couldn't possibly have been the one that pressed the button, so that theory isn't likely to take root.

Right, then. So, who are the remaining suspects that had both motive and opportunity? And where is that missile battery now? Which border is the most friendly, porous, and most convenient? Hmm... lemme think...

EMR

One point, the native language of the insurgents is Russian not Ukranian. They are Russians so the telephone calls would have been in Russian.
There is as much proof that the Ukraine had not earlier "lost " one of its launchers as it has much of its arsenal as there is that it came from Russia.
This is not modern technology but in military terms a basic piece of point and shoot equipment. The system cannot identify an aicraft from it transponder.
It was a terrible mistake, just like the US shooting down of an Iranian airbus. in a war zone none of us should be surprised when this sort of thing happens. Shocked yes,but surprised No.
BBC news this morning, suggestions that the route airlines select should be taken away from them and passed to an international agency that can declare fly/no fly zones.

Madridboy

Anyone else heard something about 2 Ukraine jets shot down today?

guirijohn

Apparently 12% of the world´s population are now living in war zones. I think all innocent civilian victims deserve our sympathy, whether they are killed in airplanes, or on the ground.

Curiously I cannot recall any western leader calling for a truce in Ukraine. In Gaza calls for a truce began straight away.

amideislas

Interesting piece by one of my favourite analysts

The rise of Putinism - The Washington Post

Apparently Fareed isn't the only one who shares this view:

Russian politics: A new ideology for political ends | The Economist

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-rus...ocracy-Volodin

Ukraine: Putinism is not the smart option for Russia | David Clark | Comment is free | theguardian.com

EMR

As we have seen in recent days, world opinion counts for nothing when one side wields the bigger stick and has the support of the majority of its population.

amideislas

The difference is when the will of the population isn't a political consideration for the leadership. When the public is denied access to objective viewpoints or truths, and in many cases, patently prohibited from expressing anything other than full support of those in power, leadership can easily achieve rather overwhelming power. No stinking democracy to hold them back.

Unfortunately, collectively, we really only care about what affects us directly, and in our cushy democracy, our collective "mood" forces our democratic leadership into a passive position - until, of course, we directly suffer the wrath of those who don't have the burden of considering the collective "mood" of the population.

So, looking at it that way, totalitarianism may well be the best solution. As long as they don't take away our corrie, we'll be fat, dumb, and happy. (well, perhaps not fat, because we would likely have far less choice of food and have to work a lot more for what little we can get, which I suppose could be argued as a good thing).

Saxy

The missile that brought down MH17 was a Russian BUK. This missile works by exploding about 30 mtrs. from an aircraft, showering it with shrapnel, which penetrates the fuselage, depressurizing it, causing catastrophic collapse.
In the case of MH17, the damage caused by the missiles shrapnel, was around the cockpit area only (investigators have shown this on TV), proving that the missile came from an area ahead of the aircraft.

amideislas

If that's true, then let's presume for a moment that we can believe Russian propaganda, which strenuously claims that they are not operating in Ukraine, nor have not supplied such weapons to Ukraine or the rebels. And if that's the case, then it could only be the Ukrainian military, amazingly sneaking a big, sophisticated weapons system deep into rebel territory sans detection, downing a civilian jet for the purpose of blaming it on Russia.

Right then. That unlikelihood, combined with other little screw-ups such as the Russian soldier selfie addict who unwittingly posted his (Ukrainian rebel territory) position on instagram, I tend to lean toward the more likely scenario.

Fredbargate

Russia and China launch gas pipeline

Russia and China have begun the construction of a new gas pipeline linking the countries, with a ceremony in the Siberian city of Yakutsk.

China's CNPC has agreed to buy $400bn (£240bn) of gas from Russia's Gazprom.

Russia will ship 38 billion cubic metres (bcm) of gas annually over a period of 30 years.

The deal will lessen Russia's dependence on European buyers, who have imposed economic sanctions because of the crisis in Ukraine.

BBC News - Russia and China launch gas pipeline

Maybe1day

There is a lesser known example of a civilian plane being shot down, In 1981 an Itavia jet was shot down by a missile over the med near Ustica. 81 lives lost, ongoing cover up by the US and France. The Nato Sidewinder missile was found but not the bits with the serial No. No-one ever heard about it in the US!
9 Italian service men on radar and ATC duties at the time met their deaths in various ways during the years of the investigation. The investigations are ongoing but NATO is very reticent......

EMR

There is also the case of an Iranian airbus shot down by an American warship with the most advanced technology of the time.
The case of the Italian aircraft is well known as it was a British investigator who believes he has proved that it was a rogue missile that caused the crash.
The program is shown frequently on one of the UK sat channels " Aircrash investigation."