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Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by SmartiesUK
(Post 4521504)
I asked the question and got this response:
"Regarding licence of first occupation, the builder has just informed me that these licence is not issued directly when you take over the property, it takes a couple of months. During that period they supply you with water and electricity. Properties in Oasis V have already received/receiving licences of first occupation." SmartiesUK - is there a bank guarantee in place? This is another v important thing that your lawyer should ensure for you. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
1 Attachment(s)
This is what a good builder does if the LFO`s are late arriving, he just waits, this urbi has been finished for a few months now and were all sold off plan.....
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Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by jdr
(Post 4523073)
This is what a good builder does if the LFO`s are late arriving, he just waits, this urbi has been finished for a few months now and were all sold off plan.....
According to the information from Smarties, the LFOs in his development are not late arriving - two months is perfectly normal, and apparantly some of the houses on Smartie´s development have received their LFOs already (again, different from your scenario). I see nothing in Smarties situation that should cause him to panic and pull out of the deal as it seems he is considering doing based on things he has read on this forum. Now if six months down the line Smartie´s villa still doesn´t have its LFO, well that would be a different story. But so far everything is completely within the realms of normality. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by keithwalters
(Post 4522605)
Smarties, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be very careful about how you are interpreting the advice that is being given to you here.
By the sounds of your comments, eg withdrawing from the purchase seem to suggest that you believe you have put a deposit down on an ILLEGAL PROPERTY. I have read nothing so far to suggest that you have purchased an illegally built property. Why do you think you need to pull out??????? The delay between the property being physically finished, and having all its paperwork in place is ABSOLUTELY NORMAL. I wouldn´t expect it any other way! It is also absolutely normal for people to complete on properties that do not yet have their LFOs in place - however, the British tend to be a little more "by the book" than the Spanish and many prefer not to complete without the LFO. That is absolutely fine, and they are well within their rights not to do so. HOWEVER, pulling out of the sale altogether because the property doesn´t have its LFO yet is LUNACY!!!!!!!!! (and breach of the contract no doubt) When you purchase a property off-plan (which technically you have done as you are buying from a developer) there is NEVER an LFO in place. How can there be? If you want to be super duper sure, just tell the developer you are going to delay completion until the paperwork is stamped - but for god´s sake don´t pull out of the sale just because of some crap that you have read on a forum!! For my part the only advice I am giving is get an independent solicitor before you go any further. I have no qualms with new builds if the research has been done properly, but time and time and time again the advice on this forum and others is always to get an independent solicitor, and it always frightens me when people don't. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
The strange thing is I have heard that the LFO`s are given by default if the inspector doesn`t check out the property within two months of the application.
Leaving maybe a loophole for the dodgy builders to get the paperwork. Rixxy ?? |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by keithwalters
(Post 4522682)
Smarties has made no mention of the property not have having its licencia de obras. So why would you assume that?
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Re: Licence of first occupation
Well no doubt smarties is now permanently attached to his toilet seat having been scared sh!tless by all on here.
As none of us know the full story of the villa, and none of us are actually legal experts, can I again urge Smarties to just speak to his abogado and ascertain the full situation from a legal point of view. An independent solicitor, as I keep repeating, would be the best bet. But as has been said, to bale out on a villa purchase just because of what has been said on here would be silly. Self doubt and panic can be an integral part of moving to a new country and buying a place here. Don't let whats said on here spook you as it is true that many have had bad experiences. It doesn't have to be like that! Get advice from the right quarters and re gain your confidence. ;) |
Re: Licence of first occupation
I've known Smarties for almost 20 years. He's having a few jitters but that's understandable. But he won't back out of fulfilling his dream once he's over the worst. No doubt, like many here who've alraedy made the leap, he and I will be sitting on his roof terrace watching the stars and having beer wondering what all the fuss was about.
He's cool - no worries:thumbup: |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by Mitzyboy
(Post 4523371)
Well no doubt smarties is now permanently attached to his toilet seat having been scared sh!tless by all on here.
SmartiesUK - as others have said please get yourself your own lawyer who is nowt to do with the developer or the agent. Read carefully any contract they ask you to enter into and seek your lawyer's professional advice. You are at liberty to bargain over clauses you don't like or would like to insert. For example, a clause which would be in your favour would be to stipulate that you cannot be forced to complete before the LFO is in place. You are the client, you have the money and so are in the driving seat. Don't let yourself be sweet-talked, coerced or bullied into doing anything you feel uncomfortable about or wouldn't do if you were buying in the UK, just because you are told that it is the norm in Spain. Don't have nightmares! |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by Hillybilly
(Post 4523421)
.... a clause which would be in your favour would be to stipulate that you cannot be forced to complete before the LFO is in place....
You should however make sure that the contract does not state that you waive your right to this protection and, if the developer/agent is being really insistent, you should actually attend the notary's office at the appointed time and state, before the notary if necessary, your reason for refusing to complete. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
mmmm
Nosing in!! If I were Smarties UK knowing what I know now having our wee dream home Sitting in Spain without Electricity (and as the house uses well water, therefor no water!)since last June I would boldy suggest that SmartiesUK dots every i and crosses every T before paying any more money. And then check again. Had I known then what I know now I would glady have paid more for the RIGHT advice. If I may suggest, use a UK based solicitor regardless of whether your abogado speaks good english or not. At least then you will have some recourse if it does go wrong. It can all get very messy (only for the purchaser) indeed and then you are left out on your own! However, even although we are one of the 30,000 in Chiclana without legal papers from the townhall and no electricity or water, we pull the cord fire up the generator pour the beer and enjoy the sunshine. Live is too short to worry. Good luck;) |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Ninety per cent of Spanish lawyers are either corrupt or incompetent and the other ten per cent are likely to view property conveyancing as not being worthy of their talents.:(
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Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by mitzipurr
(Post 4523312)
I dont assume anything. What I said was if it had no license then it would be illegal. In Chiclana at least 30000 villas have been built without one and now this is leading to all sorts of problems with electric supply.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the villas in Chiclana were lacking the licencia de obras and are therefore naturally illegal. JDR - I´ve never heard about the LFOs being given by default. That´s a new one on me. As for the solicitor, yes of course get an independant one. But (without checking all the way back through the thread) I don´t think Smarties has told us that his solicitor ISNT independant. What alarms me the most is the fact that Smarties gives us a scenario in which there is nothing untoward (although, granted, we don´t know the whole story), receives "advice" which causes him to panic and consider backing out of the purchase of his dream villa, and I feel like I am the only one trying to encourage rational thinking! Here I tell a little story: Mr Developer decides to build an urbanisation of villas. He gets his licencia de obras and begins work. When he finishes building the villas he puts in his application to the town hall for the LFO, knowing full well that this will take a few weeks/months to be approved as this is normal in Spain. The Local Authority are in the process of issuing the LFOs to Mr Developer´s villas when along comes Mr Smarties. Mr Smarties falls in love with one of the villas and pays a deposit to reserve one. Mr Smarties then goes onto the BE forum and receives lots of well meaning advice about breaking the law, fires burning down his neighbours houses, not getting connected to electricy and water, & not being able to sell his house in the future. Naturally Mr Smarties begins to panic and wonder what the hell he has got himself into, so instead of just waiting for the LFO he backs out of the deal and loses his 3000 euros deposit. Mr Developer can´t quite understand what caused Mr Smarties to pull out as he knows he has built some perfectly legal villas, but he thinks oh well, I got 3000 euros out of it. Two weeks later Mr Developer sells Mr Smarties´ villa to someone else and the local authority issue the LFO pretty much when expected. Meanwhile, Mr Smarties is back at square one and the members of BE forum are feeling smug that their "advice" saved Mr Smarties from making some horrible mistake. So what is the moral of the story? Don´t overreact. Don´t assume that every villa built in Spain is illegally built. If you have any doubts about the the LFO being issued, then just wait until it is before you complete. DO NOT pull out of the sale and lose 3000 euros because of some duff scaremonging advice you read on a forum. If Smarties comes back with some genuinely concerning information (eg, no licencia de obras, people on the urbi have been waiting 12 months for LFOs, etc) then I will happily eat my words. But at this moment in time I see nothing but total normality. Now I´d like to see a little bit of RATIONAL support and advice for someone who is about to give up on their dream because of what you have written. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by keithwalters
(Post 4523527)
Mitzipurr, you mentioned "licence to build". Smarties question was about the LFO, not the licencia de obras.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the villas in Chiclana were lacking the licencia de obras and are therefore naturally illegal. JDR - I´ve never heard about the LFOs being given by default. That´s a new one on me. As for the solicitor, yes of course get an independant one. But (without checking all the way back through the thread) I don´t think Smarties has told us that his solicitor ISNT independant. What alarms me the most is the fact that Smarties gives us a scenario in which there is nothing untoward (although, granted, we don´t know the whole story), receives "advice" which causes him to panic and consider backing out of the purchase of his dream villa, and I feel like I am the only one trying to encourage rational thinking! Here I tell a little story: Mr Developer decides to build an urbanisation of villas. He gets his licencia de obras and begins work. When he finishes building the villas he puts in his application to the town hall for the LFO, knowing full well that this will take a few weeks/months to be approved as this is normal in Spain. The Local Authority are in the process of issuing the LFOs to Mr Developer´s villas when along comes Mr Smarties. Mr Smarties falls in love with one of the villas and pays a deposit to reserve one. Mr Smarties then goes onto the BE forum and receives lots of well meaning advice about breaking the law, fires burning down his neighbours houses, not getting connected to electricy and water, & not being able to sell his house in the future. Naturally Mr Smarties begins to panic and wonder what the hell he has got himself into, so instead of just waiting for the LFO he backs out of the deal and loses his 3000 euros deposit. Mr Developer can´t quite understand what caused Mr Smarties to pull out as he knows he has built some perfectly legal villas, but he thinks oh well, I got 3000 euros out of it. Two weeks later Mr Developer sells Mr Smarties´ villa to someone else and the local authority issue the LFO pretty much when expected. Meanwhile, Mr Smarties is back at square one and the members of BE forum are feeling smug that their "advice" saved Mr Smarties from making some horrible mistake. So what is the moral of the story? Don´t overreact. Don´t assume that every villa built in Spain is illegally built. If you have any doubts about the the LFO being issued, then just wait until it is before you complete. DO NOT pull out of the sale and lose 3000 euros because of some duff scaremonging advice you read on a forum. If Smarties comes back with some genuinely concerning information (eg, no licencia de obras, people on the urbi have been waiting 12 months for LFOs, etc) then I will happily eat my words. But at this moment in time I see nothing but total normality. Now I´d like to see a little bit of RATIONAL support and advice for someone who is about to give up on their dream because of what you have written. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Rational you are right keithwalters!
Use a UK lawyer. :thumbup: |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Good points Keith, but he asked for advice of which he is getting.
The main point is never use a lawyer that is sleeping with the builder etc. There are so many things you must be very careful with and licences are the most important as you know, without licences you will get a very expensive headache. I am just pointing out the vast scale of corruption that is involved in the building industry in Spain and to be very very careful before letting them relieve you of your money. Re the licence by default HERE the link is on this post, I know you are going to say "Oh thats Marbella" but it is an Andalusian thing apparently. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by jdr
(Post 4522667)
Why not, it is illegal for the builder to sell a property to live in if it has not got a habitation licence.
You will find now it is getting very difficult to get a mortgage unless it is in place, things are changing from the old days cos so many people have come unstuck. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Smarty....just listen to all those who say get an independent solicitor.
I went through agonies after we completed on our house, and found this forum. We have no LFO. We were built under a Licence de Obra Nueva. We are not on a large urbanisation. We are legal and have legal elex. I know there are so many variables. It's all a bit of a gamble. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by keithwalters
(Post 4523527)
Here I tell a little story: Mr Developer decides to build an urbanisation of villas. He gets his licencia de obras and begins work. When he finishes building the villas he puts in his application to the town hall for the LFO, knowing full well that this will take a few weeks/months to be approved as this is normal in Spain. The Local Authority are in the process of issuing the LFOs to Mr Developer´s villas when along comes Mr Smarties. Mr Smarties falls in love with one of the villas and pays a deposit to reserve one. Mr Smarties then goes onto the BE forum and receives lots of well meaning advice about breaking the law, fires burning down his neighbours houses, not getting connected to electricy and water, & not being able to sell his house in the future. Naturally Mr Smarties begins to panic and wonder what the hell he has got himself into, so instead of just waiting for the LFO he backs out of the deal and loses his 3000 euros deposit. Mr Developer can´t quite understand what caused Mr Smarties to pull out as he knows he has built some perfectly legal villas, but he thinks oh well, I got 3000 euros out of it. Two weeks later Mr Developer sells Mr Smarties´ villa to someone else and the local authority issue the LFO pretty much when expected. Meanwhile, Mr Smarties is back at square one and the members of BE forum are feeling smug that their "advice" saved Mr Smarties from making some horrible mistake. If Smarties comes back with some genuinely concerning information (eg, no licencia de obras, people on the urbi have been waiting 12 months for LFOs, etc) then I will happily eat my words. But at this moment in time I see nothing but total normality. Now I´d like to see a little bit of RATIONAL support and advice for someone who is about to give up on their dream because of what you have written. I reckon you are right. I will at least ask the question "has the LFO been applied for already. The solicitor thing probably should bother me but in all honesty it is a massive company I am buying through who lead you by the hand through the whole thing, costs more but I would expect that for a complete package. I have met the CE of the company when I had a complaint on the inspection visit and have fired off an email to him asking him for his thoughts and guarantees on this LFO business so will post more when I get that from him. For now I wont be too worried as Keith here has managed to keep me focused. Its true buying in Spain or anywhere else is fraught with problems and for me to pull out at this first potential problem would probably be a mistake. It certainly wouldnt show stamina like most of you sat over there have got in bundles. No one would ever move I guess if they quit at the first sign of trouble would they. No, I will arrive next Tuesday and have a sniff around on this and other issues. Speak to as many on the urb as I can and see where that leads me. Thanks all for the comments, really appreciated :D |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Here is the response from the CE of the company I am buying from:
"Hi Steve , Thanks for you email. We will certainly see you into your property at “ moving in “ and arrange Electric and Water utilities. Until such time as the whole development is connected you will be on a supply of both offered by the builder. The good news regarding this is that it´s FREE … I “ enjoyed it for a year ! The delay in issuing the LFO is not a problem, indeed it is normal here. In 99% of the completions the LFO is not collected at the notary, instead it arrives a few months later. This will not affect the issuance of an insurance policy for your property as the insurance companies are aware of the delay re LFO´s. Please be assured that, while the above may sound “ alien “ to what would normally be expected in the UK, it is common practice not only along this coastline but the whole of Spain. I do hope this gives you the reassurance you require, however we can discuss the matters in greater detail when you are next here." |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by SmartiesUK
(Post 4524574)
I have been offered the mortgage already, applied about 2 weeks ago and had the official thumbs up already!
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Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by Beachcomber
(Post 4523526)
Ninety per cent of Spanish lawyers are either corrupt or incompetent and the other ten per cent are likely to view property conveyancing as not being worthy of their talents.:(
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Re: Licence of first occupation
Hi Smarties,
I thought this was a good read, as well as this. Maybe print it out and have it handy when you go for your next visit :) Always be sure to get things down in writing. Employ an independent solicitor. DO NOT USE the estate agent's recommendation under ANY circumstances. I'm sure everything will work out well. Best of luck ;) |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Handy links, but that advertising bar going through the text is annoying in the second link. ;-(
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Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by jdr
(Post 4525468)
Handy links, but that advertising bar going through the text is annoying in the second link. ;-(
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Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by MnM
(Post 4525495)
Sorry about that jdr, I didn't know. I have pop-ups disabled on my browser so I wasn't aware.
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Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by keithwalters
(Post 4523527)
Mitzipurr, you mentioned "licence to build". Smarties question was about the LFO, not the licencia de obras.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the villas in Chiclana were lacking the licencia de obras and are therefore naturally illegal. JDR - I´ve never heard about the LFOs being given by default. That´s a new one on me. As for the solicitor, yes of course get an independant one. But (without checking all the way back through the thread) I don´t think Smarties has told us that his solicitor ISNT independant. What alarms me the most is the fact that Smarties gives us a scenario in which there is nothing untoward (although, granted, we don´t know the whole story), receives "advice" which causes him to panic and consider backing out of the purchase of his dream villa, and I feel like I am the only one trying to encourage rational thinking! Here I tell a little story: Mr Developer decides to build an urbanisation of villas. He gets his licencia de obras and begins work. When he finishes building the villas he puts in his application to the town hall for the LFO, knowing full well that this will take a few weeks/months to be approved as this is normal in Spain. The Local Authority are in the process of issuing the LFOs to Mr Developer´s villas when along comes Mr Smarties. Mr Smarties falls in love with one of the villas and pays a deposit to reserve one. Mr Smarties then goes onto the BE forum and receives lots of well meaning advice about breaking the law, fires burning down his neighbours houses, not getting connected to electricy and water, & not being able to sell his house in the future. Naturally Mr Smarties begins to panic and wonder what the hell he has got himself into, so instead of just waiting for the LFO he backs out of the deal and loses his 3000 euros deposit. Mr Developer can´t quite understand what caused Mr Smarties to pull out as he knows he has built some perfectly legal villas, but he thinks oh well, I got 3000 euros out of it. Two weeks later Mr Developer sells Mr Smarties´ villa to someone else and the local authority issue the LFO pretty much when expected. Meanwhile, Mr Smarties is back at square one and the members of BE forum are feeling smug that their "advice" saved Mr Smarties from making some horrible mistake. So what is the moral of the story? Don´t overreact. Don´t assume that every villa built in Spain is illegally built. If you have any doubts about the the LFO being issued, then just wait until it is before you complete. DO NOT pull out of the sale and lose 3000 euros because of some duff scaremonging advice you read on a forum. If Smarties comes back with some genuinely concerning information (eg, no licencia de obras, people on the urbi have been waiting 12 months for LFOs, etc) then I will happily eat my words. But at this moment in time I see nothing but total normality. Now I´d like to see a little bit of RATIONAL support and advice for someone who is about to give up on their dream because of what you have written. Yes I will go along with all you say but If Smarties wants to be 100% sure before handing out any more money I would make sure first that the builder has got a licence to build the property. If he has not then it is very unlikly he will be granted his LFO and that could lead to problems with connection to essential services. I am no way trying to put him off just trying to give him some friendly advice. If the worst comes to the worst then there is always another dream home round the corner. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
I have also been sent this from the CE of the company we are buying from:
"All the builders, with which we deal, are vetted to ensure they have the necessary licensing and clarification requirements prior to us entering into a collaboration contract with them. The issuing of LFO´s therefore is a formality." All sounds okay I suppose and I have this in writing (email so to speak). |
Re: Licence of first occupation
The issuing of an LFO is never a formality.
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Re: Licence of first occupation
It sounds like you have no worries then enjoy your new life in the sun:thumbup:
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Re: Licence of first occupation
Make sure you have an independant solicitor, please.:ohmy:
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Re: Licence of first occupation
There you go! Nothing to worry about - you will be there before us :thumbup:
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Re: Licence of first occupation
Bank guarantee? Don't forget, it's v important!
For a bit of light reading please read through these posts and many similar ones on the subject of the perils of completing without an LFO: http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.co...pic.php?t=1057 http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.co...pic.php?t=1940 http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.co...pic.php?t=1425 http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.co...pic.php?t=1402 http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.co...pic.php?t=1204 http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.co...opic.php?t=612 http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.co...pic.php?t=1148 |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by Lionda
(Post 4525956)
There you go! Nothing to worry about - you will be there before us :thumbup:
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Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by SmartiesUK
(Post 4524574)
I have been offered the mortgage already, applied about 2 weeks ago and had the official thumbs up already!
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Re: Licence of first occupation
We havent moved into our property. However, many people did on our development and the majority of them had never heard of the LFO until we mentioned it.
We only found out about it from the spanishpropertyinsight website after we had arranged our flights and all the money to go over to our spanish bank account ready for completion about 2 weeks before we got the keys and the legal lady dealing with our completion had not mentioned it. Once we asked her about it she was quite forthcoming, but it is worrying that these Solicitors are not even telling their clients about it. We didn't have a mortgage so did not have a bank to bring it up. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by Gill Stevens
(Post 4526863)
We havent moved into our property. However, many people did on our development and the majority of them had never heard of the LFO until we mentioned it.
We only found out about it from the spanishpropertyinsight website after we had arranged our flights and all the money to go over to our spanish bank account ready for completion about 2 weeks before we got the keys and the legal lady dealing with our completion had not mentioned it. Once we asked her about it she was quite forthcoming, but it is worrying that these Solicitors are not even telling their clients about it. We didn't have a mortgage so did not have a bank to bring it up. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by Gill Stevens
(Post 4526863)
We havent moved into our property. However, many people did on our development and the majority of them had never heard of the LFO until we mentioned it.
We only found out about it from the spanishpropertyinsight website after we had arranged our flights and all the money to go over to our spanish bank account ready for completion about 2 weeks before we got the keys and the legal lady dealing with our completion had not mentioned it. Once we asked her about it she was quite forthcoming, but it is worrying that these Solicitors are not even telling their clients about it. We didn't have a mortgage so did not have a bank to bring it up. |
Re: Licence of first occupation
I'm having a slightly similar issue with my Developer (and possibly Solicitor) - despite that my purchase is in Cyprus. It's probably true in a high percentage of cases were 'foriegners' are buying property overseas. What you don't ask....they won't tell:frown:
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Re: Licence of first occupation
Originally Posted by Big Pete
(Post 4526681)
Is the mortgage with a British lender or Spanish Smarties ??
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