littlelambfound

I guess it all comes down to plain old fashioned racism. In reality "Roma" only account for a minuscule amount of crime....but a bigger crime seems to be their appearance. All those Spanish Armani suited businessmen ripping off everything within reach. Let alone the English middle class (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/sep/12/ukcrime.money. I guess the thing that really bugs me is that the Roma, who are regarded almost universally as the dispossessed bottom feeders of society, and to that end they have no option but to steal in order eat, are so "de-linked" from the daily news stories of corruption which exist only through greed, with the perps already have a lifestyle those at the bottom can only dream of. It just goes to show how far a clean freshly ironed white shirt will take you.

Dick Dasterdly

Well to a certain extent that is quite understandable.
It's a tit for tat situation where punters,often quite rightly, see themselves being ripped off by big companies and greedy business men, so understandably don't have too much of a guilty concience about returning the compliment.
I don't say it's right, but only understandable, however what I cannot understand is the mentality of ppl. who are often unwilling to go out and earn a living by decent means, even when given the opportunity to do so, but instead prefer to live off the backs of those who do, by whatever means they choose.

labus

Unfortunately this is the case with majority of Roma people, they don't like to work even when jobs are offered to them. School is often a burden for them and they drop after a few years. How are they supposed to be part of a society of normal people, to get integrated? It's easier to cry: "i'm discriminated" only to get more undeserved financial aid. Of course they are a problem and a menace to society.

littlelambfound

Dick Dasterdly
Gotta disagree...theft is theft, whether your wallet or a false insurance claim. Just because one appears to have more than another doesn't make it right. By this thinking, you being much richer than a Roma, should be happy with your just desserts of having your phone or wallet lifted.
The reality is that Roma are offered very limited/no work opportunities. I live part of the year in Budapest. The only work offered them, is during particularly hard winters, to manually clear the streets of snow for less than $1 per/hour. And many jump at the opportunity. Contrast this with the rising unemployed throughout Europe, who regard any manual work, as beneath their so called dignity and so continue to draw benefits. Not for them picking spring onions or potatoes at 5am.
It will be interesting to contrast the two cultures, Roma and non-Roma, as unemployment benefit comes to an end, and all those who previously worked (in construction for example) fall through the cracks down to the same desperate level as Roma. Will they turn to crime to feed their children?
Sitting here, comfortable and warm, in front of this computer, my child safely sleeping in his bed, the woes of the underbelly of society seem eons away. But, desperate times call for desperate measures, and I would never say never, as to how I might react if everything should fall.
This thread needs a little empathy.

Dick Dasterdly

IMHO its mainly down to their mindset and general mental attitude.
In times of full employment they never seem to behave much differently, not much caring whether they grasp the opportunities to hold down a proper job permanently, or not.
In addition, as previously mentioned, their attitude to a proper education system is much the same.
It's somewhat difficult to help ppl. who are unwilling to help themselves.
Many apparent no-hopers in other countries can still make it to the highest echelons of business and society with a little dedication and determination, yet somehow the Roma often seem to lack the will or desire to succeed and make a decent living from their own efforts, indeed the more they are wet-nursed, the more they seem to sit back and take advantage.
I don't quite understand the logic of your first remark.
I would much rather see tit for tat rough justice, than no justice at all.
I think that anyone who has worked damned hard for what little they may possess, should at least have the right either to hang on to it, or else distribute it to others more needy, as they themselves see fit,... after the taxman has had his pound of flesh of course.

AlanGNW

I'm guessing you haven't seen much of Eastern Europe?

Believe me - I am far from racist - but these people disgust me... From the beggars at the side of the road in a holiday resort who pull their prosthetic legs and crutches from the bushes at the end of a 'working day' to the legless woman I saw sat on the pavement in Sofia with the baby in her lap - with no arms and legs, mutilated to improve the begging take... Bloody heart breaking to see....

littlelambfound

Alan: Errrr....I lived there for over 13 years (and have a Hungarian wife and maintain a business there)....so the place is not la la land to me. Yes, I've seen all those fake legs etc. But that's not the point here. It's about what YOU would do if YOU had NOTHING, ie zero possibilities. For some the perversity is HOW they beg (ie the MO) but for me it's the dis-connect between the wealthy tourist who is appalled at poverty and then decides to holiday in a poor country....only to be disgusted by it all.
I agree that education plays a part. But the cultural divide is just too great, coupled with the larger problem that Western society has become/and will become more polarised. I think it's a no-win for everyone. And yes, it is all very sad to see.

AlanGNW

Apologies for making that particular assumption.

Likewise I was far from being the "wealthy tourist who is appalled at poverty and then decides to holiday in a poor country" (that particular visit to Sofia was downtime from somewhere far 'less civilised). If that was your assumption - I'm not sure? I am certainly not 'disgusted from Surbiton' by any stretch of the imagination.

You are right though - it's a no-win and isn't likely to change any time soon.

I'm not saying this is your assertion but differences in culture, lack of education, poverty or for that matter anything else can possibly be an excuse for dismembering a child.

JLFS

How true, more than a passing resemblance to the terrible scenes in Slumdag Millionaire. Tragic.

HBG

Unless we are super-tolerant, probably falling on our knees to forgive our trespassers several times a week, the events we experience or witness can make us intolerant and prejudiced.

Three Algerians broke into my house, a Moroccan stole my wife’s purse, I was attacked by a brave gang of Millwall supporters when I was much younger, and a Spanish lawyer in an Armani suit tried to cheat me.

But I realised that if you generalise too much and hate everyone that upsets you in life, it becomes miserable and paranoia sets in.

A fierce dog now guards my house, my wife leaves her credit cards at home, I haven’t been to south-east London for a while and will hopefully never need another Spanish lawyer.

(My prejudices aren’t confined to foreigners either, I don’t like English estate agents, solicitors, second-hand car dealers, car clampers, traffic wardens, lager louts, fat bald men with pony tails, Lords, Ladies, and Tony Blair).

labus

Should we offer them a prime minister job while they bearely know how to read and write?
Schools are offered freely and they choose not to attend and when they do, as I mentioned only a few years if any, they perform poorely. They disregard work, majority of them. There are others that work very hard indeed, but without a higher education they cannot climb the ladder up, but down. The ones that choose and are able to attend higher education are well integrated into society, I don't think anyone would look them down for having a different tone of color on their skin. The problem with Roma is the majority of them have a different approach on life, a total disregard for work or for their children. I saw or heard many times of mothers throwing their infants (like objects) to the police so that they can escape arrest. Men attack in groups with knives, axes, swords. I saw on TV a group once, bearing the same arsenal, going to the hospital and threatening the doctors to take care of a wounded (by police) clan member. No law seems to be an obstacle for them. They are anti social.

labus

Taking in account that Roma are originally from India, the resemblance is understandable.
Do you remember the scenes when they filled the empty bottles with tap water to sell to the tourists? Or how they stole the wheels of the car, or how they got shoes at Taj Mahal? Or pretending to be a knowledgable tour guide? It's all in their repertoire.
I know it's hard to go by when you are poor, but is it justifiable to steal? Especially when there are choices?

cricketman

All Europeans (of European decent) are from India originally.

That is why everyone except the Basques and the Fins speak one of the Euro-Indian languages.

It is just that some Europeans moved to Europe earlier than others.

The Spanish gyspies moved to Spain around 500 years ago from India and now make up around 2% of the population. Similar situation to Romania, although Spanish gypsies by the sounds of it are much more integrated. Although there are still problems as we have discussed on this board before.

Btw, did anyone know that Eric Cantona is descended from Spanish gypsies? And Rafel Van de Vart (the Spurs player) has a Spanish gypsy mum and a Dutch Dad.

The most famous Spanish gypsies though are flamenco musicians, plus some of the top Spanish footballers - Jesus Navas, Jose Antonio Reyes (ex of Arsenal), Dani Guiza etc

rugbymatt

Seriously... where do you get this shit from?

cricketman

I read a lot of books, especially around genetics and anthropology and keep the info I find interesting in my brain