Job vacancy with a difference coming up
 

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Unbelievable!

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Obviously a very civilized country. DM readers need not apply.

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Norwegian law apparently prohibits the keeping of people in long periods of solitary confinement.

This national law was not passed for the benefit of this one man, and was in place long before he was in custody.

Do you expect a country to change its national laws for this one man? Do you not see the dangers of precedent? How do laws protect or punish anyone consistently or fairly if they can be changed or broken for "special cases" decided by a lone court?

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:lol: Unbelievable!

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What is, the rule of law?

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No, your take on this. Why keep him in solitary? Just put him in the general population. Problem solved. It won't take long.

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Because that would be injecting my emotions into the law.

Second, that article explains their reasons for not doing that - a concern for the safety of others, not his safety.

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Yes, I read that and discounted it as bollocks!

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I daresay, but the Norwegian legal system disagrees with you.

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Doesn't alter my opinion one jot.

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I can see that, but legal systems aren't supposed to reflect random people's opinions, and we should probably all be glad of that.

Norway doesn't have capital punishment, either, so they can't really randomly apply it by dumping certain criminals into a population where they might be killed. How, and who, would choose who gets that treatment? It's a can of very unappetizing worms.

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Ask him. Solitary or general population? His choice.

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Why are you trying to achieve another death?

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Apparently, those choices are not within the law.

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If the legal system reflected a fair cross section of peoples opinions the problem would be quickly and permanently solved.

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But it doesn't, for the reason that opinions change, as do social and political values and powers. Do you really want your justice system to be subject to the whims of whoever happens to hold power or sway at that moment? I don't. Historically, that has never turned out very well.

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Yep.

Much though we might internally hanker after this, WANTING TO ACHIEVE another death - think about the phrase - makes us as bad as the killer. I've never seen it that way before and part of me still feels if people know the consequences of their actions well they have to learn to live (or die) with them. But Norway doesn't (?) have the death penalty and we're in no position to alter their government's legislation on socialising those who might otherwise be in solitary; so......

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Even if we were to accept accept this flawed argument, it would seem the good people of Norway don't want the death penalty anyway. So that's a double fail on this one, I'm afraid.

http://translate.google.com/translat...197%2F&act=url

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I'd imagine there is, from certain corners of the Auld Empire, a burning desire to string this guy up and maybe, just maybe they should, maybe he deserves it, I know he wants it, but in a civilised country is that really the answer? Has it worked in America? Does it work anywhere? Does the death penalty stop drug traffickers in Asia?

My take on the story is that Norway is right doing what it does, the way it treats its population is reflected then in the way the people act towards their society, it is an act of compassion where compassion shouldn't be shown and as such it shows a degree of humanity where often, none can be seen, especially in this horrific case. I watched the Survivors program and was touched by the humanity the survivors showed, it was a hard concept for a Brit to grasp.

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Norway is a wealthy county which can well afford to take a holier than thou attitude with any number of mass murderers.

As lawlessness and lack of respect for the law continue to increase in many poorer countries, along with increasing availability of weapons and increasing numbers of nutters willing to use them, at what point does society and lawmakers say enough is enough, especially in increasingly destitute countries where many ppl.are living hand to mouth, even starving and old folk are dieing of hypothermia because they can't afford to keep themselves warm ?

Are they expected to continue subsidising the lifestyle and horrendously expensive care of mass murderers, whilst increasingly paying the price and suffering themselves ?

To give just one simple example, it could soon get to the stage, though it may well already have done so, whereby downright evil ppl. being kept locked away for life, have much better access to medical facilities and treatment than decent law abiding citizens who are expected to pay for their keep.

Is this also morally right ? :confused:

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So who do we kill? Do we kill someone if they have killed more than one person? If they have killed more that 5? Do we kill them twice if they have killed more than 20?

You are never going to stamp out this sort of thing, thousands of years ago there would have been a war to hide this sort of twisted behaviour but the spotlight is on mankind now in such a way that it is held up for all to see and it falls on society to do the right thing, not so much for the criminal but for society in general. As others have said there can be no place in Justice for revenge and killing someone for killing people is revenge, morally right or wrong, its revenge and where does that end? Do we start flogging people for stealing? How about cutting their right hand off? How about giving pea do's to the baying mob to tear to pieces? That worked out well once before didn't it? They kicked the shit out of a paediatrics doctor!

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If killing mass murderers is an act of revenge, then incarcerating them for life must be considered likewise, especially so, as quite a few of them express a preference to be dead anyway.

Therefore according to your line of thinking, we should simply turn them all loose again amongst society to continue to do their worst, so we can no longer be accused of commiting "acts of revenge".
:confused:

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Where on earth did he say that?


There is nothing new at all about violent and warped behaviour from the human race. I doubt very much that there is more of it than there was before. We have better means to hear about it, and we also try and judge it in a way that we did not before so it comes to the public eye more. What has changed over the centuries is the evolution of consistent systems of justice to deal with them. So at least one aspect of human society is improved to that extent. I can't see how throwing someone to the mob would mark an advance in civilized behaviour, or promote it in any way. If that means there is a cost to keeping these people alive until they die naturally,while preventing them from hurting anyone else, then so be it - it's a cost I'm prepared to pay when compared to the alternative.

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I don't personally say turn them loose, I'm simply following RMs line of arguement with which some of those who would prefer death, to life inside, apparently agree.
If one is revenge, then likewise so is the other, you can't have it both ways.

As regards paying the price, try giving a straight answer to my previous post, which RM carefully avoided.
When times are hard and things are really desperate, it may well come down to choice.
Who should have priority, the mass murderer or the decent citizen struggling to simply survive ?

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ok...........

Well we know some prison officers rather well and are assured that in some respects this is ALREADY the case in the UK. I for one think THAT is a step too far, never mind providing chess partners for a mass murderer. Keeping someone incarcerated is one thing. Keeping them in comfort, with TVs, PS2s, cigarettes, you name it which the rest of us have to afford, plus a fasttrack to the front of the NHS queue, seems a tad generous to me.

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But sadly is a fact, imagine the enquiery that would be launched when a prisoner dies in jail through what they would say was neglect, they wouldn't take the chance.

Re the game machines, I read Ian Huntley (the murderer of two young girls) has to play through the bars so he can't hurt himself with the wires.

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TVs and PS2s are a cheap way of keeping folks quiet. Ask any parent.

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Well I can't argue with that, given my 10yo currently has his confiscated.....:frown:

But as for the hospital stuff, we're not talking about the same treatment as others, we're talking about queue-jumping, prison officers' time accompanying, etc etc.

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Have we got any evidence of queue jumping?

The prison officer's time to accompanying them back and forth to hospital is the cost of keeping us safe. Civilized countries do not deny health care.

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Well I'm not about to get friends in the doodoo to prove it, I've no reason to doubt their word. And we're not talking about simply accompanying, and it's my understanding there are also prisons which have hospital... and dental... wings....so there's more to it than meets the eye. If someone, for example, were in final coma phase of a terminal illness (clearly little threat to the general public) how can it be justified to spend probably hundreds of pounds a day in nightshifts and overtime etc to have them 'accompanied' 24/7?

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So we're talking about inefficiencies rather than principles?

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As far as I'm concerned - inner, gut, that kind of thing - prisoners should not get the niceties of life. I accept that the intellectual way of looking at imprisonment is the removal of freedom and that should be sufficient. But when that provides them with a life which many would love to aspire to in the sense of light, heat, food, activities, television, cigarettes and so on, I feel that is a level of 'removal of freedom' I wholeheartedly disagree with. So that's a principle. As to the example of someone on death's door costing the nation money for a handcuff-guard, well if you choose to label it inefficiency in order to suggest I've got my thinking skewed, well fair enough. I don't think my thinking's dodgy, but I wouldn't, now would I! And I actually think if it's no more than inefficiency then whoever decreed it should be that way has their principles skewed.

.........cue reminding me the legislation, rules & regs etc are determined by a democratically elected govnt. Yes yes I know that....... we get what we deserve.

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No, incarcerating them is a good way to ensure they are no longer a danger to the society they have obviously turned their back on. Locking them up is a suitable punishment for their actions. We could be like other countries and murder them and the message that sends out would be what?

I am not going to have my words twisted to me being light on criminals, I'm not but I have never and will never advocate the death sentence for any crime, it simply doesn't work.

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The fact is that our prisons are already pretty well full to capacity and it appears that there are insufficient funds to build any more or to keep up with the ever increasing serious crime rate.
As a result criminals who would normally be kept behind bars are already being turned loose on society.
No doubt if we all dug even deeper in our pockets then we could keep them all locked up.

The question is where does it all end ?

The rate of violent crime continues to increase rapidly along with the availability of weapons and an ever increasing disrespect for the law.
The time will surely come when serious choices have to be made, although according to one poster it appears that criminals already have priority.

Now maybe if the day came when one of you fluffy bunnies was turned down for a life saving operation, so that priority medical treatment be given to a mass murderer, it might just possibly get you in a slightly different frame of mind.

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So just because I would rather the blood of another human being was on my hands I am a fluffy bunnie? Seriously? Thats the strength of your argument?

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I suggest you meant to word that a little differently as in "not on your hands" ? :unsure:

In any event you can see well enough that my argument is much stronger than that and I would still be interested in hearing a direct response to the questions I raised.

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Prisons should be a place so horrible to be in that no one would want to risk a second term.
No niceties, no toys work work and more work.
Bring back corporal punishments for repeat offenders, 3 strikes and you are out whatever the crime.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...cord-high.html

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I have to ask, have you ever spent any time in a cell?

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The Norwegians are much more enlightened than we are when it comes to jail time.

Mate of mine was done for driving under the influence and got 3 months in prison. This was reduced if he did his time at the weekends in solitory. His time was further reduced if he went on a bread and water diet. Every weekend he turned up to spent his jail time in solitary on sundays and saturdays with a stack of paperbacks.

Reduced his sentence to a quarter of what he would have done if he had done normal jail time.

Jim