Illegal House.
 

Same old story I’m afraid, but thought I’d ask advice anyway on behalf of some friends.

They bought a house around two years ago in good faith and now they are being taken to court because it is classed as as an illegal dwelling in the Parque Natural.

Apparently the story goes, it was built as a Nave (agricultural building) by the previous owners. They then proceeded to add two bedrooms and a bathroom and used it as a dwelling. They were fined for this but the property remained as it was (still illegal to be used as a dwelling).

They then decided to sell it. Enter our friends, They were not told the house was classed as a Nave and assumed it was a legal dwelling as no-one told them any different. It was being lived in when they viewed it. They paid for an interpreter to translate the documents for them. This person also didn’t tell them the property could not be lived in, and actually translated the documents so that it sounded as though they could (our friends found out, too late, that this person was hand-in-glove with the Estate Agent).

They now have to go to court to try to prove their case. At worst they could have the house knocked down AND go to prison.

Has anyone any suggestions?

Re: Illegal House.
 

Doubt if they will go to jail, but they have lost their money.

The only way to buy a house in Spain is with a mortgage, even if you dont need it. Let the bank take the risk, they do all the checks needed.

Re: Illegal House.
 

First off, sorry to hear about their awful situation and I really can't see them being sent prison for what is a civil matter.
Obviously the first step is to get legal representation, fast. The best English speaking lawyer they can afford. I would also consider finding out who their euro MP is and making sure that his/her office is formally notified about it.
Despite caveat emptor if there is any written mis-translation I would think that there was easily grounds for a law suit here.
Good luck.

Re: Illegal House.
 

Have to agree,they def will not go to jail as they were duped.
On a slightly positive note re knocking down of houses,MEP Cashman,has succesfully lobbyed in the EU court,and got them to accept that the practice is in breach of human rights.The EU is now trying to get the Spanish Gov to agree,which it has in principle,the Spanish centrel Gov is now trying to get the regional Govs to concur.:)

PS:Hope this post makes sense:)

Re: Illegal House.
 

No, they do some checks. They are not as thorough as you might think!

If it turns out to be illegal, you still owe them the money.

The only safe way is to get the legality checked out properly but that, in itself, is not always easy in Spain.

About the only safe way to buy property in Spain is to buy a 10 year old house on an urbanisation - even that isn't foolproof.

Any building on non urban land needs to be treated with considerable suspicion and anything in a Parque Nacional is almost certain to be illegal (if sold as a house rather than as a toolshed).

Re: Illegal House.
 

Agree with the first bit, but the second bit quoted, not so much. We live in a 200 year old house. With the paperwork too. That is security for you.

Re: Illegal House.
 

At least with a mortgage you can give them the keys back and wave goodbye. They lose the cash not you.

Re: Illegal House.
 

Definitely won't go to jail, but may lose the house and money I'm afraid. I wih this didn't happen so often. :(

Re: Illegal House.
 

Thank you all so much and thanks especially for not saying it was their own fault (which some people have said).

They have got a good lawyer (hopefully!) and also an Estate Agent who was approached about the property by the previous owners (but didn't ever market it) still has some photographs of it with furniture etc in it six months before our friends viewed it.

I will tell them about Michael Cashman MEP, thanks.

Re: Illegal House.
 

Just to say for clarification purposes, in response to Fred James, the house is in the Parque Natural - the Parque Nacional is higher up.

The Parque Natural is protected land but dwellings can be built on it in certain circumstances.

Re: Illegal House.
 

That's true - you can build a Nave - but you cannot live in it!

Re: Illegal House.
 

If you had a 100% mortgage (unlikely) then, to some extents, that's true - but even then the bank can chase you for the balance of any money owed.

If you have some equity in the house then you will lose it as the bank will sell at a price low enough to just cover their loan - any equity you had in the house will be forfeit!

Re: Illegal House.
 

A lawyer may not be enough - it may be worthwhile getting a qualified architect involved as they will be able to produce a technical report on the property and liaise with the town hall re: licences, etc.

Yes, it's more expense - and they should do it via their lawyer - however such a report (and such a person) will carry much more weight in the courts than an estate agent with a few photographs.

Ultimately, though, it will be the classification of the land which will determine what happens next to the 'house'. :unsure:

Re: Illegal House.
 

Thank you once again, I will mention the architect, although I believe their gestor is organising this for them.

Thanks.

Re: Illegal House.
 

Also I will say, there are other dwellings within the Parque natural - some were given permission to build, others have been legalised later.

Would our friends have any comeback if they were treated differently to other people?

Re: Illegal House.
 

There was a time when all homes were built that way... but that was on the basis that your cousin or son or brother used family land on which to build, and the whole project cost no more than the raw materials. Clearly, this approach to construction doesn't translate well to modern day society, so is largely frowned upon more and more by the authorities.

Somewhere between these two extremes, dwellings will have been constructed in that area, possibly over decades. Different circumstances, different mayors, different political parties, different people, different moods etc, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that every property will be very individual as a result, and it could be difficult to make comparisons.

When was the nave first constructed and when did it turn into a house? How much land does it have? How does this history compare with (legal?) neighbours?

Re: Illegal House.
 

The Nave is quite new (six years) but I know of legal proerties that have been built at much the same time or later.

It has been a house for at least five of those years.

I couldn't tell you how much land it has, I am no good at land measurements, but all I can say is, several terraces - more than some other places and less than others. And they keep it beautiful.

I know of other people who have been given permission recently. As recently as a few months ago.

Our friends have been told that there are others in the same position as them and that they are being used 'as an example'.

Think it stinks personally.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Building Permissins should be given out willy-nilly in the Natural Park. But the same rules should apply to everybody.

Re: Illegal House.
 

An example of what?????

In some small way I could "almost" understand the logic of buyers being held accountable when they move in without habitability certificate on builder's water and leccy... although plenty do, it does infer that they've somehow accepted the property in that state. And buying from a builder, it's also inferred that the builder only built because of the buyer.

In this case - it was already there. Done and dusted - law broken - years before your friends came on the scene.

Doesn't make sense, does it? :unsure:

Re: Illegal House.
 

I have read this thread and am thoroughly disgusted by the way these people are being treated by the Spanish Government! Just one (of many) reasons why we are returning to the UK. I no longer wish to invest money in Spain.

Re: Illegal House.
 

Thanks everyone for your help, we are seeing our friends today and will give them all your advice.

Twyntub, when our friends moved in the house even had mains water and solar panels for the electricity. They had no reason to think it was not all above board.

Lionda, we too have been thinking of returning to the UK for similar reasons to yourself.

I know all government in all countries have coruption in their midst, but here in Spain it is just blatant bullying.

Oh....and I don't know of any Spaniards who have been told they have illegal houses.

Re: Illegal House.
 

But this example could, has & will happen in any country, including the UK.

I feel extremely sorry for the people involved as it is their home after all, but in the end of the day if a property doesn't have the right permissions then it (or the area effected) will be pulled down or you will have to goto court to prove otherwise.

It's very easy to put the Spanish government down for something like this but it's also important to look at it with a rational eye in my opinion and seek getting any lost funds back by taking the interpreter and/or the estate agent to court.

Re: Illegal House.
 

No it wouldn't!

In the UK, key officials involved in town planning CANNOT live in the area in which they are planning. Our neighbour used to be one, and travelled over 600km each week to preside over planning meetings at the other end of the country. So none of this "doing your brother in law a favour" or "making sure your own house gets better treatment". Fair and objective decisions.

Secondly, in the UK there wouldn't be a SIX YEAR DELAY between the house being completed and the town hall knocking on the door to say "oops, sorry, we didn't notice that you'd done this".

It seems to me the crux of this matter isn't that these people are being made an example of. It's that lots of OTHER people in the area have had a blind eye turned i.e. the law NOT applied to them.

Re: Illegal House.
 

I'm sorry, It's probably me as I've just woken up, but this example used was the previous owner was living in a agricultural building and took it upon themselves to convert it into a dwelling, thus no planning permission was sought, offered or more importantly granted as least this is my understanding.

If you think a planning issue would not drag on for years in the UK then I think you're sadly wrong, I for one know of one example of my late grandmother which took over 4 years to sort out and this was directly to do with planning which was all sought, offered and then granted by a council official.

Like i said it's important to be objective.

I know this is going to cause some flak, but as I've been put in the position to have to say it, it really is buyer be aware. The new owners made a common mistake and I for one have witnessed within the last 3 years similar 'back handed' practices within the UK property market which unfortunately I can not go into details about as it is currently set to goto court and I don't want to risk anything when it comes to being able to nail an estate agency to the wall on something :)

The crux as you call it matters not that other people (probably Spanish) have had a blind eye turned, in the end of the day if the property was fully legal then there wouldn't be a problem and that in my opinion is the crux of the matter.

Obviously there are exceptions to my opinion, land grab etc etc.

Re: Illegal House.
 

Understood. It's true that these things do go on in the UK, but in Spain it's almost official policy!

You hear stories in the press and on the net every week where almost everyone in the chain: the vendor, estate agent, solicitors, architect, planning officers, the mayor and even the bank manager can be league together... :blink:

Re: Illegal House.
 

Well in my book, this is another example of not trusting the estate agent to do everything for you in the first place. I know it is difficult when you are new to the area, or even new to the country, to find reliable independent help but from my own experience of buying here, the estate agent did offer to do everything for me but I got my own solicitor to take care of the details for me. He wasnt perfect but at least the agent could not get away with too much. I would only use an estate agent to find the property in the first place. Everything else you have to check out yourself or have it checked out by someone you employ, not someone the seller employs. So far we have looked at a few fincas on the med coast and every one has problems enough for us to walk away.

Re: Illegal House.
 

Yeah but as I have mentioned, it's important to be objective and treat every example here as a single entity and not just lump it into what you've just described.

As we've seen quite a few times on here a decent portion of issues that have come up in the past could have been avoided by seeking independent legal advice from a lawyer that wasn't recommended by the vendor/estate agent, possibly one not even from the same town/area.

In this case I really hope the new owners got a translation in writing and not a verbal one as then I would hope they have a good case against them/him/her. You would hope (not assume as this is Spain after all) if someone is qualified to give translations from a legal document that they are insured for instances like this and thus the new owners may be able to achieve a decent level of damages.

Re: Illegal House.
 

Scampicat, you haven't said how this problem came to light. My guess is the reason the local authority has singled them out is because one of their neighbours (who knows perfectly well all the property in the zone is illegal) has denounced them. Once this has happened the local authority can no longer turn the blind eye they did before the compliant.

Re: Illegal House.
 

A client of mine who is a property developer gets me in to do all his gardens when his bunch of club footed builders are done, and to date he has never sought planning for the vast majority of the jobs he does, he gets outline permission then uses it as ticket to do whatever he wants.


At the very worse he simply applies for retrospective, and is not averse to paying for the odd holiday or pay for the odd birthday party for certain councillors.

Re: Illegal House.
 

Seems to me many of these "houses" only become illegal when they are bought by a foreigner ie. Brit. Everyone knows everyone in small pueblos and the authorities must have know the nave was being built as a house!

Re: Illegal House.
 

But doesn't that mean that the complainant's property is probably illegal as well? A counter-complaint might just serve them right.

Re: Illegal House.
 

Maybe, but you're not going to know which one brought the illegal dwelling under scrutiny.

Re: Illegal House.
 

How did they manage to get mains water if the property was/is illegal :confused: Surely checks would have been made by the water board when the application for mains water was first applied for :confused:

Re: Illegal House.
 

Thank you all once again for your replies.

It came to light because somebody, at this late date, denounced the builder. I understand that if a complaint is made it must be acted upon. But our friends have actually done nothing wrong so why must they be the ones to be punished? Why not punish the dodgy builder, estate agent, translator, previous owners, mayor/council?

I don't know how the water was brought to the house but it is. Probably a corrupt water authority official.

They are seeing a lawyer today, so I will keep you posted.

Re: Illegal House.
 

The dwelling is not important. Many plots in Spain are sold with the services (electric, water, telephone, etc) already connected, "ready for construction", even though there are no permits or dwelling.

Re: Illegal House.
 

Well the whole thing stinks of curruption :curse:

Hope your friends are able to get some positive help and advice scampicat :unsure:

Re: Illegal House.
 

Well, neither a garage, nor a workshop nor a warehouse are residential dwellings but there is nothing corrupt about them having services installed.

Re: Illegal House.
 

But if someone lived in them and then sold them as a dwelling it is corrupt......stop splitting hairs :cool:

Re: Illegal House.
 

Assuming the original nave was built with permission for a nave, then it would have been quite feasible for it to have utilities.
So the first infraction then was the illegal extension(s) but the previous owners were fined for that, end of story in that your friends can't be held responsible.
The act of selling/buying a nave is not against the law, so your friends have done nowt wrong there.
Their only "crime", as I see it, is using the nave as a dwelling. If they were to cease using it as a permanent dwelling I don't see why it would be under threat of demolition. If they, understandably, want to continue using it as a dwelling, then they would have to apply for a change of use. Unlikely to be granted due to its location (I would think).
Chance of success not high but if I were in their shoes, I'd be going after the estate agent/translator. The notary had no part to play as all they do is ask if you understand what you are buying and, presumably, the translator answered in the affirmative.

Re: Illegal House.
 

Instead of casting wild assumptions care to explain why you think it's corrupt in more detail?

Re: Illegal House.
 

It's corrupt....there is a lot of corruption in Spain.

I am NOT casting wild assumptions read the papers :zzz:

Not getting into a discussion with you as I have stated my opinion - every one is entitled to their own opinion and that is mine - and I am not alone!