How close to the breadline?
 

Sometimes a news article makes you sit up and realise life is not all about Wayne Rooney, Liam Fox resigning and that idiot minister dumping government papers in a public park.

I could have written this one, I'm living it right here in Spain:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog...orst-next-year

I see people avoiding taxes by working black every day, every single day, I see several just by walking my dog in the early morning. They will never stop this destructive practice in any of the southern European countries, it's too ingrained in the national fabric.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

You are probably right and in the present economic climate there are very few companies going to commit themselves to new full time employees with all the extra expense and red tape involved.
Little doubt it will get worse before it gets better and the big question is how the younger generation will handle it after just beginning to get the impression that they'd been born into a land of milk and honey.
The old timers will most likely take it in their stride best they can, having already seen plenty of hard times.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

I have lived in Spain so long that I became used to paying for nearly everything in cash. This week I had some work done in the house which came to £389. I got the cash out of bank and when I offered it he said sorry, but could I have a cheque, my accountant doesn't like it when I get paid in cash! Took me nearly a half hour to find the cheque book. He said the UK Gov. are clamping down hard on builders etc. Definately a North/South divide

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

I agree it has a long way to go yet, and will get a whole lot worse for a lot of people. The "old timers" are like us, houses paid for, no mortgage, money in the bank etc, we can ride it out without any problems, but it's the youngsters that are going to bear the brunt of this crisis. I fear it will be a long time before the job situation improves, so the youngsters with no jobs, no money, they'll be in deep ****. I agree with the bit in the article about vanity projects, Spain has invested huge amounts on new roads, new airports everywhere that nobody is using, they're like ghost towns. Even the excellent AVE is horrendously expensive, it's never likely to make money, it's a money pit, but there are still plans for it to connect many more of the remoter parts of Spain, (and even less profitable) building carries on unabated. Still, I suppose that provides some jobs.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

A few white elephants here including the AVE if you scroll down the page.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...?newsfeed=true

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

I think it's a north/south divide (Europe wide) with a secondary old/young divide here in Spain. Spain is producing highly educated people with no job prospects within their own country. It must be heartbreaking for a degree holder to work on a short term contract for pitiful wages and no security.

But the overall problem, the cause for such injustices, remains; the country itself is not able to collect the tax receipts it is due because of the historic, tax evasion practised by a large section of the population.

It begs the question, why does it not happen in Scandinavian countries. while it is rife around the Mediterranean?

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

There´s a huge article here about the huge waste in Spain on vanity type projects, from motorways, AVE, airports, trams etc. Best you just scroll down and look at the photos, you´ll get the picture. All with wildly overoptimistic forecasts of passenger numbers, all running at huge losses. In a lot of cases the actual figures are up to 80% less than forecast, with some of the airports doing nothing. The problem is that these schemes guaranteed certain revenue, and when it falls woefully short, the ayuntamientos have to make up the shortfall in the contracted amount, many are already millions in debt.

http://dfc-economiahistoria.blogspot...-tranvias.html

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Totally different mindset, especially in Sweden.
I've spent a lot of time there over the past twenty years or so and still have a place up there.
Forget the land of the Vikings.
Swedes are the most subservient ppl. on the planet having lived under and accepted an extremely regulated system for so many years, in many ways akin to the old soviet bloc countries, though with a much better standard of living.
Every last kroner is accounted for and the Govt is aware of every tiny movement they make, even when going to the bog more than like. :rofl:
The authorities always know what's best for them from a very early age and near enough dictate their whole lives.
There is no way the Spanish would accept such a system or even the majority of Brits come to that.
Like many who have experienced both, I would still prefer living in poverty in Spain than the totally boring existance,(can't really call it living), of Swedens brainwashed nanny state.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

I know what you're saying but I want an admission from you that you miss it like hell?

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Fancy spending all that money on Malaga Airport when no one uses it. :rofl
GRFFS.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

For many years Brussels has been throwing money at Spain like confetti and they'd have been fools not to grab it with both hands.
No doubt some of it has been misused especially in agriculture, but I think the time will eventually come when they do get the full benefit of such projects as the new road systems and the AVE.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

I've experienced a similar mindset in north Germany and Denmark, a grating 'self-righteousness' that makes a country prosperous but got on my nerves. I prefer the 'decadence' of Spain which is why I've lived and worked here for 21 years.

Unfortunately that freedom under a southern sun seems to encourage an anti-establishment mindset which leads to large scale tax evasion by the natives, and corruption to make your head spin.

I suppose it's a choice between freedom and nursery to the grave security.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

I hope you are right, however I can´t see where all the new people are going to come from to give the increased numbers.:confused: As I said, some services are 80% under the predicted break even point, there´s no way they´ll ever pay their way. The Americans looked at the AVE, thought it was great, but said there was no way they could afford it!:confused: And as you say, Spain has had huge amounts of EU money thrown at it in the past, but that´s changing, and changing for the worse.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Only thirteen million people used Malaga airport this last year and that was while all the building work was going on.
When they built the M1 they said it would never be used to it`s capacity. :rofl:

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

I miss the "old" Spain:) It was fine before about 10 years ago then it all went to pot. I miss balconies and bouganvilla and 2 hours of extra daylight in winter.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

The "old" Spain still exists in very many places.
I guess you just haven't taken the trouble to look for it.

..and it still gets exactly the same hours of daylight it got ten years ago, believe it or not.

What hour of day it shows on your clock is somewhat irrelevant in Spain I would have thought.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

There are countries already buying train systems from Spain, and it's looking likely that both Norway and Saudi Arabia (although France are still in the running) will be buying fast train systems soon from consortiums led by Spanish companies - talking billions, not millions worth of orders.
As for numbers of passengers - already some services take millions of passengers each year eg Madrid to Valencia, Madrid to Barcelona. Also the local sevices Segovia to Madrid, and Toledo to Madrid are very well occupied. The fast train link up to Paris via Figueras and Barcelona is scheduled to start Autumn 2012, and already they are forecasting 2.9 million passengers in the first year on that line. Any of the sceptics like to bet it will be under 2 million in the first year? Once the fast train network is connected to the European system (via French SCNF) you'll see even better take-ups.

It's not directly connected to the high speed rail investment, but the following article shows how the increase in Spanish reputation in trains is leading to orders world-wide (in this case New Zealand)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/loca...land-train-job

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Karma given! Exactly what I was thinking - you probably put it better than I could.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Thanks for that, I suspect there might be more than that. I was particularly interested because it could happen to me, the exodus.

Two days ago, we were in a Spanish town square on Columbus day. Watching the locals strutting about proudly is something I'll never tire off. I'd miss it back in the UK, I'm having nightmares about rain-sodden Suffolk.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

I fear this is happening in a lot of countries, just it's well hidden. For example people talk about the 40-50% of young people in Spain without a job, and indeed it's a grim statistic. But look at this - the number of economically inactive young people in the UK (18-24 year olds) is.... 50%.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/878350-u...ts-out-of-work

Of course some of those "economically inactives" are in full-time education and (one hopes) they will get a decent job when their studies finish. But it shows that it's not just Spain where jobs are hard to find. I hope the political leaders (and business chiefs) find a solution soon. I certainly don't want to walk down a city street where the local youth have been excluded from a chance to earn a decent living. I'm getting a bit old to fight back against feral muggers, whatever their origin.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

I don't recognise your view of the UK either, unless it's changed dramatically in the last few months. Here in London nearly all building workers seem to prefer payment by cash for services rendered - well the Polish, Bulgarians and Rumanians do :unsure: Maybe it's the customers, who prefer getting the job done half price. And maybe you're right - I'll ask around and find out if anyone has had a similar experience. If it has changed as you describe, the local indigeneous builders (if there are any left) will certainly be happy.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

I know most of Spain and it doesn't exist at all, probably you are talking about out of the way pueblos with a load of inbreds and a lack of any culture. What would you know Stevie, your knowledge seems to only be of Madrid and tapas bars! Perhaps demolishing the costa concrete would be a start. It may get better as the economy gets worse, the spanish realise they have killed the golden goose perhaps they will attempt to get some things back and lose some of the arrogance.
I have just been to Italy and although I wouldn't want to live there the difference in friendliness and service is marked. The coast line is still stunning and not ravaged by third-world concrete blocks. Admittedly it is more expensive than Spain but I suppose you pay for what you get.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

It is understandable that Spaniards will try to fiddle their taxes, with the level of corruption here particularly from their "betters" would you not feel exactly the same way. It becomes a personal necessity whereas in the UK we may grumble but understand that the higher the level of taxes the better the services although MPs with their corruption could create a similar situation there.
Another problem for Spain could be the decrease in the birth rate which may cause problems in the future when work increases.

Graham

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Give it up Stevie, you should know that only two or three people on this forum know about Spain everyone else is an idiot.

Graham.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Judging by your posts of Spain (2 euro coffees standard, not knowing certain common dishes and having to look them up in the dictionary), I'm sorry, but I have zero confidence in your "knowledge" of Spain. A small part of the tourist coast near Marbellas perhaps. Even most of your article quotes are from the local paper Sur. Spain is a big country - you mention a stunning coast line in Italy - try Cantabria or Asturias or Galicia. Have you ever even been there? :rofl:

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

I wonder how you know all this:confused: My workman was English and runs a bona fide company. We did have a very nice turkish guy to repair a gate and an iraqui and a Kurd deliver our dining room furniture. They were all excellent. I don't have a problem with foreigners if they work. Would be better if they threw out some of the workshy benefit addicted Brits:rofl:

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

There you go again coming in with your snarky asides almost everytime I post, some concierge:thumbdown:

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

As usual in your headlong charge into defending anything slightly negative about Spain, you make mistakes. I said "the excellent AVE", nobody is questioning the quality of the train service, what is being argued (by a Spanish guy that knows far more than you or I about the subject) is the business model, it's spread over too large a country with too few people to ever be profitable. You talk about "predicted figures", that's where this system has failed abysmally, the actual figures have never been anywhere near the wildly optimistic predicted figures. You can tell us how well the lines are doing, the article clearly states "Es que todas las líneas de AVE en España son deficitarias", they are all losing money! It goes on to say that´s why richer, more populated countries like Germany, Japan, France have very few lines, and no plans to have any more. I´ll leave you to argue with yourself, you can perhaps you can talk it into being profitable. I´ll leave you with a quote though before I go from La Vanguardia.

Spain's high-speed trains unprofitable
The Spanish railway company Renfe will close the AVE high-speed rail link Toledo-Cuenca-Albacete on July 1 after only six months in operation. As with other routes on Spain's high-speed railway network - among the largest in the world - the demand was too low. The Spanish daily La Vanguardia pokes fun at the ridiculous waste of money for the project: "Everyone here wanted an AVE link to score at the ballot box. This ghost train with its empty carriages and more staff than passengers is the parable of a country that went to bed rich and woke up poor; and went on dreaming the day after. When Merkel read the news at breakfast yesterday she no doubt cursed all the money Germany had invested in this absurd project. She probably thought it would have been cheaper to give a Mercedes to each of the nine passengers the train averaged daily rather than backing this senseless project in the land of Don Quixote."

Buenas noches.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Your persona on this talkboard is that of a rich privileged Brit who's never had to work. You may be different in real life, but I wonder if you're the best suited to talk about workshy Brits. :confused:
I agree that plenty of folk from the Middle East are decent hard working folk. Much like anywhere. Which is my basic philosophy on life. Some people do their best to point out I'm wrong though. Who knows?

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

I have been everywhere, don't have to rely on google like some. Had connections to Spain since I was in nappies. I read Sur daily because it was my local newpaper and have friends and relatives there so it is my natural interest. Sorry galicia is beautiful (for a visit) but I would stick pins in my eyes before living there! It is you who doesn't know about Spain, anyone would be aware reading between the lines of your posts that you sit on the computer picking up stuff from google and fantacising about the place.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

From my experience of so-called Italian culture, it consists mainly of taking ppls eyeballs out and robbing them blind.
Probably nick your false teeth as well if you slept with your mouth open.
Little wonder it's the home of the Mafia who have a sticky finger in nearly every pie.
Well as long as there's ppl. dumb enough to pay their exorbitant prices for rubbish service, I suppose it will never change for the better. :p

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Such controversy over the simple subject of tax evasion. The North pay their taxes, the South don't. The North is prosperous, the South is skint.

Germany is in the middle, they too have a large black economy, but nowhere near Spain's.

There's only one conclusion. The Mediterranean countries will remain our poor cousins, like they've always been.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Come on, we covered this back in August. The Toledo-Cuenca-Albacete service is a SERvICE. No lines or stations have been closed.

If you can produce evidence that the Toledo-Madrid service is poorly taken up, or the Madrid to Valencia service, or the Madrid to Barcelona service is poorly taken up, you would have a point.

And as I pointed out - once the French network is connected end of next year, you'll see numbers go up even more. Remember that we are at the depths of a severe economic downturn. How many decades was it before the Channel Tunnel (or even privatised British Rail) was able to turn a profit?

Lastly - to correct your commonly repeated jibe "headlong charge into defending anything slightly negative about Spain" I have always been open about negative things in Spain (as I find them - I appreciate that we all have a bias) . Search for pickpockets in Madrid (or Barcelona) or the difficulty in getting decent tea (or even paying the bill in decent time) and you'll find my username crop up. Please don't judge me by your own blinkered opinions! I even admit to disliking the heat of the Spanish summer - give me a shower in London in July, any day!

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

The service was far from rubbish, excellent actually. Everyone we met was friendly and helpful...worth every penny.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Keep drinking your 2 euro coffee! :rofl:

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Well I think that about sums it up...nite, nite:rofl:

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Two euros ? Thats a bargain.
It was the equivalent of six quid in St Marks square twenty five years ago.
They even advise you to book and pay for the toilet on the internet well in advance of a visit.
How sad can that be ?
Possibly the most over-rated,over-priced country in Europe and I never saw anything to match the better areas of Spain.

"Been everywhere" jacky ?..... now I know you cannot be serious.
I doubt that anyone who has lived all their life in Spain could seriously claim to have been everywhere.

Never mind jacky, I bet the Italian mafia just love you.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Average coffee was 4 euro in nice surroundings. If you want to talk about rip offs what about the thousands of Brits who have lost hundreds of thousand each in property rip-offs in Spain. It is all over the internet, Facebook etc.

A lot of the mafia have moved over to Spain. One of my neighbours was arrested a few years ago, he was implicated in 40 murders in Italy.:blink:

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

Another excellent post Dick.
I'd like to meet the person in most countries who's claimed to have been "everywhere". Even here in England it must take some doing to have seen every part of the country. Luxembourg in one lifetime, perhaps! I do contract work currently in the UK, and have been based recently in Docklands. Quite an eye opener, and I suspect a good proportion of the 9 million Londoners (apart from the local East Enders) have never explored this part of London.

Re: How close to the breadline?
 

If you choose to live next to neighbours like that I don't blame you for moving.:blink:

Round my way good neighbours are a top selling point for most properties and mine are pure gold, but there again it's much the same at my home village in the UK. :thumbsup: