cricketman

But in Spain they only teach religion in those lessons, they do not preach to the children (so I understand) unless the school is a certified religious school.

In England all schools have to sing hymns and say prayers at the morning and before lunch, or do the Jewish/Muslim equivalent (its part of the national curriculum and is tested by Ofsted). I was shocked when my 5 year old brother came back from school singing songs about Jesus, his school was NOT meant to be a Christian school. Smells of brain washing.

Btw, I've read all of Dawkins books and say his science books are some of the most important books ever written. If there is one book to help understand how life came about and what it means, for me The Ancestors Tale is life-affirming and less technical that The Selfish Gene.

His anti-religion crusade is less important, he just comes across as too intellectual - which of course he is, but religious people don't like that, they're not going to listen to him . So he is preaching to the converted. I guess he just wants more people to realise that religion is not a rational way of life and we shouldn’t put up with religious people making decisions for us e.g. Blair and Bush invading Iraq because God told them so!

However, personally I which he'd use his energy into writing more science books and making science more accessible to the general population, that is where he is quite literally a genius.

jimenato

I had an interesting conversation last night about this (in the pub naturally).

We were discussing Northern Ireland - one of the chaps was retired RUC. He said that when he was there there were only 3 or so non-faith school and now there were 50 or 60. There was general agreement that this was a good thing.

Then we got to thinking about how at the same time of this very welcome secularisation of education in NI, Blair in his spell as Prime Minister was very actively encouraging faith schools in the rest of the UK.

Bizzarre

bil

Now that's an astute observation. We have evolved to go around in groups, and to be on your own is still perceived as a very dangerous place. So, in order to have that support we kow-tow to other people's beliefs lest we be ostracised and isolated.

Dawkins is a very bright lad. His concept of the selfish gene is dead to rights, but there is often a kerfuffle as to how empathy and altruism would develop in a world dominated by selfish genes.

IMO it's no biggie. Empathy has massive evolutionary advantages, so we can see that that would be selected for. It gives you the advantage that you can work out what others are thinking, and what they will do in given circumstances.

That leaves the door open to altruism, because you can then feel the need of others, and that then affects you, causing you to help others that are not genetically related to you.

What I despise more that anything is when the god botherers continue to spout lies about evolution and science, saying stupid things like 'Oooo science can't even tell us how a bee flies 'cos its wings are too small to work properly' . W*nkers.

The other bit is the famous ' Science says that we are descended from monkeys.' Deliberately misleading and blatantly dishonest, because that isn't how it works. We share a common ancester.

Monkeys are just as evolved as we are. They are evolved for their niche just as we are. Evolution isn't about purpose or design. It's actually all about screwups and poor copying.

We stand on the pinnacle of millions of years of screwups, and we are only where we are because biological systems don't copy themselves perfectly, and errors creep in.

The tragedy of the religious is that they lack the scientific knowledge to understand the concepts discussed.

Or, to put it more bluntly, they need to be a lot brighter in order to understand just how stupid they are.

jimenato

Aha! "Science doesn't know everything" - one of the stock mantras of the woos.

Answer? No, of course it doesn't - whoever said it did? But that doesn't mean
you can just make up the rest".

bil

No-one knows everything, maybe not even god if he/she exists.

Science can tell you everything if you give it enough resources.

If god exists, then it will be science that tells us what shoe size he takes.

lynnxa

yes they only teach not preach, but they don't teach about any religion but catholicism

I wasn't happy with the Baptist-style assemblies at my dd's school in the UK either (almost all the teachers were baptist - the head teacher had 're-born' a lot of them) but at least they were taught about many religions


I'm just reading Ghosts of Spain & last night read that all religion teachers in State schools are still appointed by the catholic church & expected to 'donate' part of their salary to the church - and can be sacked by the church if they break any of the church doctrine!

bil

You think that's bad? You should see the power the church used to have over people.

Franco's regime handed almost absolute power to the church over people. Almost like living in the middle ages, where the priest was god's right hand.

whitelinen

Maybe 20 years ago but not now.

lynnxa

oh yes I know that - & wouldn't have wanted to live here then

I have to admit I was surprised that the teachers were still appointed by the church - even now

lynnxa

at my dd's school 7 years ago they still did - not every day admittedly

bil

It is actually a bit like Britain before the black death. Back then the state and church owned you.

HBG

I went to my godson's confirmation party some years ago and followed the various ceremonies to be polite. The church ceremony involved a minister, or vicar, or whatever, telling the audience that they should be proud to 'belong'; I didn't want to spoil things by telling him that I didn't.

My godson has never set foot in a church since and has turned into a right villain, so much so that I'm wondering whether I could renounce my church status with him. I remember even signing some daft papers to look after him.

We last exchanged a couple of nasty emails a year ago, and decided that it would be best if we never met again. I wouldn't mind meeting that vicar again though, just to have a quiet word in his ear.

Lawrence.Brown

My daughter starts at a church of england school in September, there are two Sikh children, one Muslim and a couple of Catholics in her intake!
All English state schools are still required to have a christian assembly and prayers every day. It just isn't enforced, probably because it isn't PC.

bil

Secular religion I don't have a problem with.

It's the damn fundamentalists who are hell bent on turning children into clones of themselves that grip my sh*t.

jimenato

"Required to" and "it isn't enforced". Which? There is a big difference!