HBG

I suppose when talking about immigrants we differentiate between them. Most countries would love to receive a million pensioners from a rich country who bring their money with them and don’t cause trouble. They buy houses, spend money on every day living and don’t cost the host state a penny because their medical fees are paid for from back home.

But a strongly socialist country like Spain can’t differentiate between the Rumanian and the Brit arriving at its border, and, hand on heart, why should they?

Dick Dasterdly

Those are only the known official figures, with regard to legal immigrants as at the time of survey.
The true figure,including illegal immigrants would likely tell a very different story, if it were known.
The figures relating to immigration over the last half century or more would also tell a very different story, when comparing the UK to the rest of Europe.
Statistics, statistics........

jimenato

But which way would the difference go? It must be much easier to immigrate to Spain than Britain simply because of the geography. The figures missing would be made up of true "illegals" - i.e. those from outside the EU and just shouldn't be there, and those who have a right to be there but are not registered. I wouldn't like to bet on which country has the most of each type.

Dick Dasterdly

Basically I would say the numbers are mostly pure speculation.
As previously mentioned they can move into Spain quite easily,however they can also move out just as easily,possibly to other parts of Europe incl. the UK and also in difficult times some go back where they came from, as has occured in the past two years, though I doubt if accurate records are available regarding this.
In the case of the UK it is likely that very few legals or illegals leave permanently, unless physically or forcibly removed.
I wonder how many countries,if any, have taken as many on board as the UK over the past 50 or 60 years.

steviedeluxe

Even your statement is pure speculation (and probably untrue). For example I know several people from the Middle East, specifically from the Kurdistan area of Iraq, who went back after it became semi-independent - they made a bomb on rising property/land values. People are the same the world over - if they sense a better life abroad they'll move. And foreigners are just as able as Brits to get tired of the grey skies and other things that "annoy" us.
As for your last question, countries like Iran and India have taken in far more refugees and migrants over the years, because they border troublesome areas. Plus, in Europe I understand both Germany and Sweden have taken in more refugees. Not saying there hasn't been problems with this though.

Dick Dasterdly

Yes,mostly speculation, however not sure what refugees to Iran and India from various parts of the globe, have to do with EU non-union.
Though Sweden has taken a lot in,your estimate doesn't seem to stand up looking at the total population numbers alone.
Nor would it be likely to stand up for total immigrant numbers, compared to the UK over the LONG TERM.

bil

One could argue that if we allow turkey in, it will send a message to the Muslim world that secular Islam is acceptable by the civilised world.

The reverse would equally be true.

HBG

There seems little doubt that Islam is the greatest threat to the western world. The next, inevitable war, will be between the West and Islam. Or Christianity and Islam.

Apart from checking the currency movements, when I switch on to the world in the morning I expect to find that we have bombed Iran. It’s bound to happen. Israel cannot sit back and allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons, they would be committing suicide.

The US will step in to support them, as will the rest of us. I( don’t know the outcome, but it will be unpleasant.

bil

Why not war over water? War is not inevitable, it may be probable or highly likely, but few things are genuinely inevitable.

If Iran is a threat, Israel will probably carry out the same sort of strike they did to Iraq.

Dick Dasterdly

The West and Middle East may or may not be building up to a major showdown. However it looks like the main event will be coming from China which is happily sitting back watching the rest of the world's shenanigans, whilst meanwhile building up towards becoming the Worlds biggest superpower, with which no one will be able to squabble in not too many years time, and the West has only itself to blame for allowing it to happen.

elspeth sinclair

Or France the worst!!

Dick Dasterdly

Except they aren't stuck in France.
They have a free choice of virtually all the countries of W.Europe from Norway right down to Spain with it's open borders, yet they are still willing to risk their necks on a daily basis to get across that final stretch of water to the UK.
I wonder why ?

A choice of 25 at the last count I believe.

http://www.axa-schengen.com/en/schengen-countries

steviedeluxe

Well compared to the Africans coming in on rafts to Spain, they're not risking their necks on a daily basis are they?
You've seen in the house-bubble years, countries like the UK, Ireland and Spain act as a lure to people from troubled countries, as there was perceived to be jobs and opportunities there. Hence the millions of migrants (and Spain has taken in even greater numbers than the UK in the last 10 years). Plus, the UK because of historical reasons (think Empire and its army operating overseas even today), and its English language, has an extra lure. EDIT. Apparently the greatest rise recently is down to increased numbers of students - do we stop foreign students bringing money into the UK??

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/au...o-uk-increases


However as the coming depression sets in, expect to see internal migration to go down to the UK, and external migration to rise. [in fact I'm fairly sure external migration from the UK has already risen, but I'll have to search for that- EDIT - the link I've put shows I was mistaken about that, but wait for the fall-out from all these cuts that are coming!]
Although I think the UK made a mistake in allowing Accession countries to join the EU too quickly, I don't see a difference between a Rumanian plumber coming to the UK (or even an Iraqi refugee seeking to use his medicine skills or work in a factory) and a Brit teaching English in Valencia or opening a shop in Sydney.

elspeth sinclair

ILLEGAL IMIGRANTS


They come one after another,
In leaking boats. Human cargos
Piled up like parcels, without
Addresses or recipients.
Travelling to nowhere, left to
Their fate without food or water.
Victims of mafias, puppets of
Governments. They have lost
Everything except their hope.
We must try to help them.
Tomorrow it could be us
Adrift in an endless sea.

Elspeth Sinclair 2005


You can have the above in Spanish if you wish.

Dick Dasterdly

Compared to sailing on rafts, I would say that hanging underneath juggernauts on the motorway and stowing away in refrigerated trucks,(some already killed),is quite a dangerous business.

As for the students, many are coming over and paying money to phoney agents who run dodgy universities which exist only to supply them with all the necessary false documentation regarding attendance,pass slips and certificates etc.
The authorities do their best, but as fast as they round up one group of scamsters/gangsters, another takes their place.