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Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
I attended the meeting, and I thought it was very interesting and informative and well worth the 2 hours of my time.
I don't know who Bryony spoke to but there seems to have been some confusion. There will be a flat fee of 155 euros (incl IVA) per property, this is a 1 time fee that will cover the case and any subsequent appeals. According to Pablo the only time a percentage of costs would happen would be if we lost the case and the court decided that it was a 'nuisance' case - or that is to say a case brought in bad faith, under those circumstances we might be ordered to pay the other sides cost, which would be split between us. As for the remedies; there are a number of possibilities; the best being a refund of all EUC payments made to date, the next a refund from year 5 and finally simply the option to opt out of the EUC. (There may have been another one, for a refund from the start of the action, not sure). Obviously these would be for the people named in the action. If you need further details I'm sure Pablo would supply them if you contact him. |
Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
Originally Posted by Jay218
(Post 11335705)
I attended the meeting, and I thought it was very interesting and informative and well worth the 2 hours of my time.
I don't know who Bryony spoke to but there seems to have been some confusion. There will be a flat fee of 155 euros (incl IVA) per property, this is a 1 time fee that will cover the case and any subsequent appeals. According to Pablo the only time a percentage of costs would happen would be if we lost the case and the court decided that it was a 'nuisance' case - or that is to say a case brought in bad faith, under those circumstances we might be ordered to pay the other sides cost, which would be split between us. As for the remedies; there are a number of possibilities; the best being a refund of all EUC payments made to date, the next a refund from year 5 and finally simply the option to opt out of the EUC. (There may have been another one, for a refund from the start of the action, not sure). Obviously these would be for the people named in the action. If you need further details I'm sure Pablo would supply them if you contact him. |
Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
Originally Posted by MikeCol
(Post 11335681)
Hi John, we didn't attend the meeting (went to the Beach Rugby instead) and from what I have been told neither did many others. The only info I have, from someone who did go, is that all interested parties would need to pay a percentage of the costs and in return (should they win) they will get 1yrs EUC payments back + they will not have to pay anymore. I will find out precise costs etc for you if you don't hear anything from anyone else. Regards Bryony
We were around fifty attending, but in any case, it is more important to have only a few people who care and do something for Esuri rather than having many attending just to have something to talk about over drinks! |
Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
New to this thread.
Is this able to be progressed on no win no fee basis? Also, what about legal costs insurance in the event of a loss? |
Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
Also...what constitutes a win?
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Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
Originally Posted by Yorkshire Scratcher
(Post 11336695)
New to this thread.
Is this able to be progressed on no win no fee basis? Also, what about legal costs insurance in the event of a loss? Even 130x 40 = 5200 seems too low for me though I dont know the Spanish system. Note this is for the entire process: appeals, court costs etc till finalisation. Estimated in 2017. The insurance wasn't mentioned, and I didn't even think of it. There is a big potential downside: A failed first case and then we have to stump up the legal costs as Jay mentions above. But the lawyer said that this kind of case could not be seen as a nuisance (in his opinion) - and it was unlikely that the courts would demand charges... or they would be low spread out (at a guess 40-50 Eur). But its a risk. My major concern from day 1 was that if we were 'successful' (i.e win= return of payments made) how the Town Hall would pay the whole EUC cost (millions). There is only one way for a broke Town Hall. A 'super tax' and of course IMO there would be 'blood on the streets' if Ayamonte residents had to pay a bunch extra for 'those rich Brits and Madrid/Sevillians on CE'. One thing that surprised me - the lawyer said we pay over twice the IBI of the Ayamonte local residents. I knew we pay more (for virtually no extra services) but not so much more. I wonder if he is right here. As I mentioned earlier, I would be happy to have the EUC (an organisation I have major concerns about) in front of a judge, justifying their existence. I personally would not be driven to get a refund. Only the people signed up/paid up to the action would receive the money in a 'win'. Estimating that we have paid (say) 1000 each so far, (40 people) means 40K which is a better number. And so if I join, I will then want my share. Of course if we win, and the EUC is proven illegal FOR THOSE WHO PAID FOR THIS ACTION, others may possibly follow the lead.. and so there could be other actions following and so a greater demand of money from the Town Hall. Which could have adverse effects. Its important to me that we have good contacts with the rest of the local population in this borough. I worry about the bank guarantees and the way they will be spent. Normally there are controls around this, but the banks (who have paid the money - its already in an account it seems, 4.2m).. they have other things to worry about in this crisis than to manage/control this money: This perhaps is more important to me as the 'next action' from the residents. To ensure that this is spent properly. I am still undecided whether to join up or not... but am not at all against this. I would judge from the people I spoke with was at the meeting it was 50:50 Jon |
Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Jon-Bxl
(Post 11336726)
No we didnt discuss a no-win no fee basis. Its a fixed fee per property 155 (TVA included) so actually roughly 130 for the legal costs. In fact they need >40 people to make it worth while and someone asked what would happen if they got more people (= more profit). At that point I publically said that I personally accept and prefer a known fixed cost written into the contract. A much better proposition for me personally and I dont begrudge a company making a profit.
Even 130x 40 = 5200 seems too low for me though I dont know the Spanish system. Note this is for the entire process: appeals, court costs etc till finalisation. Estimated in 2017. The insurance wasn't mentioned, and I didn't even think of it. There is a big potential downside: A failed first case and then we have to stump up the legal costs as Jay mentions above. But the lawyer said that this kind of case could not be seen as a nuisance (in his opinion) - and it was unlikely that the courts would demand charges... or they would be low spread out (at a guess 40-50 Eur). But its a risk. My major concern from day 1 was that if we were 'successful' (i.e win= return of payments made) how the Town Hall would pay the whole EUC cost (millions). There is only one way for a broke Town Hall. A 'super tax' and of course IMO there would be 'blood on the streets' if Ayamonte residents had to pay a bunch extra for 'those rich Brits and Madrid/Sevillians on CE'. One thing that surprised me - the lawyer said we pay over twice the IBI of the Ayamonte local residents. I knew we pay more (for virtually no extra services) but not so much more. I wonder if he is right here. As I mentioned earlier, I would be happy to have the EUC (an organisation I have major concerns about) in front of a judge, justifying their existence. I personally would not be driven to get a refund. Only the people signed up/paid up to the action would receive the money in a 'win'. Estimating that we have paid (say) 1000 each so far, (40 people) means 40K which is a better number. And so if I join, I will then want my share. Of course if we win, and the EUC is proven illegal FOR THOSE WHO PAID FOR THIS ACTION, others may possibly follow the lead.. and so there could be other actions following and so a greater demand of money from the Town Hall. Which could have adverse effects. Its important to me that we have good contacts with the rest of the local population in this borough. I worry about the bank guarantees and the way they will be spent. Normally there are controls around this, but the banks (who have paid the money - its already in an account it seems, 4.2m).. they have other things to worry about in this crisis than to manage/control this money: This perhaps is more important to me as the 'next action' from the residents. To ensure that this is spent properly. I am still undecided whether to join up or not... but am not at all against this. I would judge from the people I spoke with was at the meeting it was 50:50 Jon I appreciate you were in the meeting and your words. Please, let me release you from your major concern. In case we completely win, the amount the Administration had to refund to people joining the action is not that much if we have into account the annual budget of the Administration. But, anyway, what it is sure is that they would NEVER impose a new tax to be paid by all Ayamontinos, that's for sure. Not only in Ayamonte, but in any place of Spain things do not work like that. I can guarantee you this 100% even when it does not depend on me. Although this is absolutely true, and although I did not mention it in the July 5th reunion because I had not confirmed it yet when the reunion took place, I can confirm now that the Ayamonte Town Hall (as almost every Administration in Spain but I needed to confirm it) has a Civil Responsibility Insurance precisely to be able to afford this kind of claims. Thus, the Administration will not pay to us, it would be the insurer who would have to do it. Actually, it is not unusual that this kind of claims against the Administration are addressed in the civil jurisdictions rather than in the administrative ones, because, eventually, the insurer is also a part in the lawsuit and it is the insurer who at the end of the lawsuit must pay. You can find the PLIEGO DE CLÃUSULAS ADMINISTRATIVAS PARTICULARES PARA LA CONTRATACIÓN DE UNA PÓLIZA DE SEGURO DE RESPONSABILIDAD CIVIL Y PATRIMONIAL DEL ILMO AYUNTAMIENTO DE AYAMONTE attached in this message. And again, for all the new people entering this thread, if you want to receive more information and to join the action, please, feel free to email me or send a private message, or call me or whatever you want. Kind regards, Pablo Vicente. |
Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
Originally Posted by pablovicente
(Post 11336749)
Hi Jon,
I appreciate you were in the meeting and your words. Please, let me release you from your major concern. In case we completely win, the amount the Administration had to refund to people joining the action is not that much if we have into account the annual budget of the Administration. But, anyway, what it is sure is that they would NEVER impose a new tax to be paid by all Ayamontinos, that's for sure. Not only in Ayamonte, but in any place of Spain things do not work like that. I can guarantee you this 100% even when it does not depend on me. Although this is absolutely true, and although I did not mention it in the July 5th reunion because I had not confirmed it yet when the reunion took place, I can confirm now that the Ayamonte Town Hall (as almost every Administration in Spain but I needed to confirm it) has a Civil Responsibility Insurance precisely to be able to afford this kind of claims. Thus, the Administration will not pay to us, it would be the insurer who would have to do it. Actually, it is not unusual that this kind of claims against the Administration are addressed in the civil jurisdictions rather than in the administrative ones, because, eventually, the insurer is also a part in the lawsuit and it is the insurer who at the end of the lawsuit must pay. You can find the PLIEGO DE CLÃUSULAS ADMINISTRATIVAS PARTICULARES PARA LA CONTRATACIÓN DE UNA PÓLIZA DE SEGURO DE RESPONSABILIDAD CIVIL Y PATRIMONIAL DEL ILMO AYUNTAMIENTO DE AYAMONTE attached in this message. And again, for all the new people entering this thread, if you want to receive more information and to join the action, please, feel free to email me or send a private message, or call me or whatever you want. Kind regards, Pablo Vicente. This is indeed excellent news thank you! I would rather 'lose' the EUC money I have spent than have some kind of 'us and them' between CE and the rest of the Ayamonte community. Its tricky enough as it is with the local residents. We also agree that the amount is low at the above 40K rough estimate. May I suggest that you also enclose the document you gave out in the meeting - it is full of good information that I think the non-attendees on this forum would find it really useful. It explains everything perfectly. Thanks for starting this initiative Jon |
Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
1 Attachment(s)
Following Jon suggestion, please, find enclosed a brief with all the information discussed in the past July 5th meeting.
Best, Pablo Vicente. |
Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
Originally Posted by pablovicente
(Post 11336813)
Following Jon suggestion, please, find enclosed a brief with all the information discussed in the past July 5th meeting.
Best, Pablo Vicente. Now I am not a lawyer and have no knowledge of Spanish law but I have worked on big business deals as a management consultant for a lot of my career and I know when I smell rotten fish! With the risk of annoying a great many of you, ( and I will probably be flamed :ohmy:) I think that a class action - whilst probably legally possible - is a little naive and misguided and would be shooting ourselves in the foot. I could speculate more but might open myself to legal action so everything I have written is already in the public domain or IMHO is fair comment. BTW don't forget that the 155£ fee does not include the Notary costs of the POA and notarised evidential documents. |
Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
Originally Posted by MikeJ
(Post 11338342)
Just a note on the numbers. The unaudited accounts such as they are and have been published show that although the budget was around 1€m per annum the actual receipts were considerably less than that. In fact the EUC was running at a loss of around 800€k per annum. They were probably able to do this as debtors (ie those who should be paying the EUC their dues, ie us!) can be shown as assets on a balance sheet and they would be able to borrow against this asset. So the EUC has in effect been running on credit all this time. Arguably the bank guarantee could be used to pay off this debt if the owners do not all pay their dues as - again arguably - the money would be going to the upkeep of CE. Catch22!
Now I am not a lawyer and have no knowledge of Spanish law but I have worked on big business deals as a management consultant for a lot of my career and I know when I smell rotten fish! With the risk of annoying a great many of you, ( and I will probably be flamed :ohmy:) I think that a class action - whilst probably legally possible - is a little naive and misguided and would be shooting ourselves in the foot. I could speculate more but might open myself to legal action so everything I have written is already in the public domain or IMHO is fair comment. BTW don't forget that the 155£ fee does not include the Notary costs of the POA and notarised evidential documents. With so many "brains" around Esuri, no wonder the Mayor and Fadesa created this EUC (oh, at the evening of 31st of December)! |
Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
Originally Posted by lusitano
(Post 11338484)
With so many "brains" around Esuri, no wonder the Mayor and Fadesa created this EUC (oh, at the evening of 31st of December)!
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Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
Originally Posted by MikeJ
(Post 11338342)
Now I am not a lawyer and have no knowledge of Spanish law but I have worked on big business deals as a management consultant for a lot of my career and I know when I smell rotten fish!
With the risk of annoying a great many of you, ( and I will probably be flamed :ohmy:) I think that a class action - whilst probably legally possible - is a little naive and misguided and would be shooting ourselves in the foot. I could speculate more but might open myself to legal action so everything I have written is already in the public domain or IMHO is fair comment. BTW don't forget that the 155£ fee does not include the Notary costs of the POA and notarised evidential documents. I have to say thank you because I learn a bit more English everyday reading your posts. This time I had to look for the meaning of rotten fish. I found this on the internet: " There are contradictory views about the sight of fish in a dream. In many cases, it means money and abundant means; for certain interpreters, it means worries, sorrow, disease, saddening news, and death where the fish was seen in the dream, in view of a fish’s unpleasant smell, high cost, and lifeless body. But in the opinion of the author of this book, this could not apply to fish seen alive in the water, just caught and fresh, or well cooked. In general: • Fish symbolize the ruler’s minister (s), because the sea is a king and the fish his soldiers. " Well, with this meaning in my head, I have to say that, even when I am not a business man having worked in big business deals for a lot of my career, I do smell rotten fish too. But what smells like rotten fish is what the Ayamonte Town Hall has been doing in Costa Esuri (and not only in Costa Esuri) last years. I also think that an experienced business man (and even a young Spanish lawyer) could well infer that, if this was about fish and dreams, the Ayamonte Town Hall would be the sea and some people here its fish, even when these "soldiers" know (or suspect) the sea is contaminated and they are the ones suffering the harm of such contamination... But the king is the king as the sea is the sea, the old man is an old man, the boy is a boy and the fish is a fish. The shark are all sharks no better and no worse...However, that is something that all the Gentlemen concerned –obviously all dead fish that swim in the stream while keeping their mouths shut– servants of the system, have to address to their own consciences, as far as such exists. I could speculate more (without being subject to legal action), but everything I have written is already in the public domain or IMHO is fair comment (or failing that, it is an Ernest Hemingway quotation). ...But yeah, do not forget, just in case I did not mention already in the July 5th meeting a couple of times, it was not said and spread already through this thread, or I did not specifically mention it in the letter I enclosed here or sent via email, that the 155£ (if you pay me in pounds you do not need to pay me 155 though, I would accept just 122£) fee does not include the Notary costs of the POA and notarised evidential documents... PD: Please MIkeJ, take this answer as a very respectful one, because so is it, and because I think public forums are indeed a nice mean of exchange comments, suggestions, ideas...even a bit sarcastic ones as well, but always with respect as you did and as I hope you take mine. Best, Pablo. |
Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
Originally Posted by pablovicente
(Post 11338727)
Hi,
I have to say thank you because I learn a bit more English everyday reading your posts. This time I had to look for the meaning of rotten fish. I found this on the internet: " There are contradictory views about the sight of fish in a dream. In many cases, it means money and abundant means; for certain interpreters, it means worries, sorrow, disease, saddening news, and death where the fish was seen in the dream, in view of a fish’s unpleasant smell, high cost, and lifeless body. But in the opinion of the author of this book, this could not apply to fish seen alive in the water, just caught and fresh, or well cooked. In general: • Fish symbolize the ruler’s minister (s), because the sea is a king and the fish his soldiers. " Well, with this meaning in my head, I have to say that, even when I am not a business man having worked in big business deals for a lot of my career, I do smell rotten fish too. But what smells like rotten fish is what the Ayamonte Town Hall has been doing in Costa Esuri (and not only in Costa Esuri) last years. I also think that an experienced business man (and even a young Spanish lawyer) could well infer that, if this was about fish and dreams, the Ayamonte Town Hall would be the sea and some people here its fish, even when these "soldiers" know (or suspect) the sea is contaminated and they are the ones suffering the harm of such contamination... But the king is the king as the sea is the sea, the old man is an old man, the boy is a boy and the fish is a fish. The shark are all sharks no better and no worse...However, that is something that all the Gentlemen concerned –obviously all dead fish that swim in the stream while keeping their mouths shut– servants of the system, have to address to their own consciences, as far as such exists. I could speculate more (without being subject to legal action), but everything I have written is already in the public domain or IMHO is fair comment (or failing that, it is an Ernest Hemingway quotation). ...But yeah, do not forget, just in case I did not mention already in the July 5th meeting a couple of times, it was not said and spread already through this thread, or I did not specifically mention it in the letter I enclosed here or sent via email, that the 155£ (if you pay me in pounds you do not need to pay me 155 though, I would accept just 122£) fee does not include the Notary costs of the POA and notarised evidential documents... PD: Please MIkeJ, take this answer as a very respectful one, because so is it, and because I think public forums are indeed a nice mean of exchange comments, suggestions, ideas...even a bit sarcastic ones as well, but always with respect as you did and as I hope you take mine. Best, Pablo. |
Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
Originally Posted by MikeJ
(Post 11338894)
In case there is any doubt about my post - the rotten fish I smelt were to do with the financial arrangements of the EUC and its cosy contractual relationships with certain service providers - say no more! ;) ;) (Monty Python reference Pablo :thumbup: )
For anyone who may not be familiar with Monty Python and as a reminder to those who enjoyed the shows of the early 70's Pablo if you can watch this TV show it may give you a better insight to British humour GOLD Sunday 20th July 7:30pm UK, 8:30 pm Spain Monty Python Live (Mostly): One Down, Five to Go. Exclusive to Gold. The comedy event of the year: see the final Monty Python reunion show live from London's O2 Arena. Expect classic sketches, some surprises and lots of silliness Length 2 hours 35 mins Entertainment, Comedy |
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