EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Hi everyone,

I am Pablo Vicente, a Spanish attorney and economist and a partner in Vicente & Matanza Asesores y Consultores, a law firm based in Valladolid (Spain). Although I am not British (pardon the intrusion), I also have a lot of interests in Costa Esuri since my family is the owner of an apartment there. I write this post in order to let you know of our intention to begin a class action against the EUC Costa Esuri and the Ayamonte Council

A few neighbors asked me some months ago about whether it is legal or not the EUC Costa Esuri and the extra tax (“the maintenance fee”) we are paying. My firm’s partners and I have been studying the issue for some time and we have come to the conclusion that it is not. There are so many arguments that support this conclusion, and not only because of the formalities that made the EUC illegal since the very beginning, but also because of the many underlying reasons. The law in Spain is on our side, and above all, and more important, the case-law and the decisions of the Spanish Supreme Court. As you may know, Spain is a civil law country (not a common law one), but stare decisis is being increasingly important and no Court would rule against it.

Therefore, we have the determination to initiate legal actions against the EUC and the Ayamonte Council. We have been working on this case for some time already, and we strongly believe we can win. We got a YES from some of the neighbors, but we need to involve a lot of people, since otherwise it would be impossible because of the high cost of such a proceeding. We can all benefit from this, the more we are, the less expensive would be for any and all of us.

I know you may have some doubts. At this point we just want that people know about this potential class action in case you want to join it. We will go to Costa Esuri by the end of June to have some contacts with the different communities and intercommunities. We will also hold a meeting that we will announce promptly to give all the information and to resolve the doubts of those who want to attend.

Thank you for your consideration.

Kind regards,
Pablo Vicente.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Brilliant news ,I have not paid this tax since I found out how corrupt it was. No accounts , no representation, no infrastructure improvements etc.
Good luck, you have my support .
Kay O ness

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

I would be very interested in knowing more and hope that any meeting is arranged at a time when I can attend. I have paid all the money requested (more fool me, you might say) but can't see anything in return.

Kath

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

We too have always paid our dues and seen nothing in return so you can count us in too. Look forward to hearing what you can do for us all- great news

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Hi Pablo

You don't have to be British to post here... in fact the Spanish viewpoint is always welcomed.

What you plan to do is very interesting - and I understand that you are also asking for us to share the cost for any action. I have been extremely unhappy with the EUC; the town hall involvement; the lack of any professional reporting and communication ... and concerned about the actual interests of the board members.

Experience at CE, for me and other people I know, makes us wary of spending further in an environment where many are concerned about the 'system' in Ayamonte with the EUC and the town hall (and many other things). Now you as a professional lawyer are saying that you are sure that the system is 'not legal'. AND you say that it has been going on with impunity for years, since the start.

Property prices are down around 60-70% from pre-crisis; There are concerns about a lot of things including the illegality you feel exists at the highest levels; Even (as some may suspect) fears of some possible corruption makes people very concerned about spending more money (in this 'messy environment'). Also I personally feel the 'system' in Spain seems to take forever to get anything done, especially when it involves legal action.

I would be very interested in attending a meeting or having a discussion about your plans before I commit anything. I would also want to be sure that I am not entering years of legal manoeuvrings and expense... and that means even more frustration. For me the frustration is more important than the cost.

I fear the EUC rely on the fact that people would rather just accept it and enjoy their homes. As bad as it might sound 'sticking your head in the sand' is not always the worst course of action for many people and I don't criticise them for that.

But....

I think the best course of action for you would be to meet with the CERA board. (As residents you will know all about this)

The new board includes Brits and Spanish and even has legal experts on it. It is also a legally authorised body to represent CE citizens.

If you can convince them of your credentials and plans, AND you have some sort of jointly-agreed-plan, then you will certainly get my support, and those of many others, IMO.

Without their support, I personally would not get involved. IMO this is my 'success criteria' for your very interesting project.

Thanks for the initiative and I wish you every success

Jon

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

I would be very careful about not paying EUC charges. The way the have set up the payment regime is through the Gestion Tributaria which means for now they treat it as a property charge. If these are not paid they attract interest which compounds and rises each half year.. If you still do not pay they become a charge on the property which is set against any sale proceeds if you sell.

With the disastrous fall in prices these could be more than the value after a number of years.

I paid as I should for the first 4 years and in a mild protest I stopped since in our crescent we get very little for our outlay, the trees are all dying, most shrub areas have died and are now full of weeds and the watering is so wasteful as to be criminal in a country short of water.

Then the dreaded signed for envelope arrived. The six monthly charge had been increased by 10% and this compounded and doubled if you did not clear the debt.

I did pay and am up to date again but it was frightening how quickly the sum mounted up.

I know others who have not paid since day one and have received no notice but a house is fixed and imoveable so when you or your heirs come to sell there is a whacking great charge to pay.

PS. Due to the way the payments are set up there is no obligation in Spanish law to send out bills or to inform you of any accumulating debt. Many will not even be aware of the charge particularly if they live in UK and bought the property from Fadesa. Their data collection and keeping was awful. We got our first notice almost a year late because it had my name part of my post code and the rest belonged to someone else. I think the post office only got it to us because of my unusual surname. Of course if you now live here as we do now then all the other charges you pay to the Ayuntamiento give a strong clue where to send the registered letter so they may get something to you!

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

We have always paid ours and as we are foreigners in this country I would be worried if I didn't. Regards Bryony

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

A breath of fresh air…….thank you Pablo Vicente.
As you and your partners have now concluded, there are many other owners in CE who have known since before the EUC was constituted that it was and is illegal.
As such, there are very many owners who will be more than interested to sign into a class action to once and for all deal with this corruption which has been forced on the urbanization.
Assuming you are serious about this action, you will have a great uptake.

A recommendation is, to regard this action on an individual or by property basis rather than associating it with communities and or intercommunities. You may or may not be aware of the political minefield in Costa Esuri regarding communities, administrators and the like.
Equally, with regard to the residency association, there are very many owners who are not interested in being associated with the residency association but would be interested in being involved in the class action as you stipulate.

Hence a plea to consider all welcome, regardless of communities, intercommunities, associations and so on.

And to advise others regarding payments, which hopefully the illegality of which would also be dealt with in the class action; to those who may have ‘not paid’ for protest or whatever reason,, assuming you have a Spanish bank account, it is highly unlikely it will become a charge on your property; payable when you sell; because the EUC have used some (undoubtedly illegal) loophole whereby they have accessed individual’s personal bank accounts to take the money they feel is owed to them. This has happened to several property owners in Costa Esuri in the past twelve months; and to accounts where it is impossible to determine where the EUC got the bank details from.

Pablo, thank you for taking your time to consider this matter; we await your next correspondence.
Regards Al.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Thanks you all for the welcome and your support. I appreciate your contributions and thoughts and I will take all of them into account.

From now on, we are at your disposal. Feel free to contact us in either the email or telephone that appear in my forum signature to ask for information or should you have any question or doubt regarding this process I will be glad to talk to you and answer them. I am looking forward to meeting you all when we go to Costa Esuri by the end of this month. I will keep you posted.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

As for Jon worries and doubts, I perfectly understand. The idea of sharing the cost is first to guarantee that this way would be much much less expensive to any and all of us. Our intention is to ask a very low amount of money (less than a year of “maintenance fee”) and in this fee it would be everything included (lawyer, procurador, judicial taxes, appeal if necessary…) In exchange, and furthermore, we are going to ask not only to stop payments of the “fee”, but also to have back all the money already paid plus interests (or the cancellation of any debt incurred) for all of you.

But it is not only this what we are trying to do with this initiative. As you said, the EUC rely on the fact that people would rather just accept it and enjoy their homes. Well, we have to be able to show them a great sense of community and a strong one. We want to let them know that we know they did things wrong, that they are still doing and that we know our rights and we will go for it in a class action in which there will be involved not only a very few neighbours but many of us. May CERA be a good platform to discuss this, we will contact them and we will expose our plan and arguments to them so as everyone involve in the Association can get all the information and decide to join the lawsuit.

It could take some time, true, but with your support I honestly and strongly believe we will win. When you do so many things bad (and the EUC and the Ayamonte Council did it) you cannot hide them.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Either way,if you think its Illegal,or its being overcharged,won't make much difference,there will still be an EUC charge, on all the properties,that will have to be paid by each owner/owners?,so paying nothing won't make it go away,you are just accumulating a bill for another day, it's like our Council tax at home,set by the local council each year,you have to pay it,no choice?.

Ken.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

That’s where you are wrong Ken; each owner in Costa Esuri already pays IBI, which is, as you say, “like ‘your’ council tax at home”.
IBI is charged from the local Tributaria office and is the local “council tax” which is set by the local council with no option, but to pay.
The EUC on the other hand is a “community charge” which, when done legally and correctly would be an “optional community” established by all the owners to cover areas which are not officially covered by the local council.
In Costa Esuri the maintenance that is currently being carried out under the umbrella of the EUC should be covered by the Town Hall and should be paid for from home owner’s IBI fees; after all what else is the council tax for.
The EUC in CE was set up, in a hurry and incorrectly, jointly by Fadesa and the Town Hall in order to pass the costs for maintenance onto home owners instead of the Town Hall, who should have taken it over.
Equally the EUC was set up early, in order to allow Fadesa off the hook of having to finish the place off and or to maintain the urbanization until such time as it was finished.
The Costa Esuri EUC is and always was illegal; the charge is an additional tax on cash strapped home owners who already pay the legitimate local taxes to the Town Hall.
If you prefer to pay the illegal charge, so be it. But when the EUC is annulled and refunds are being offered out, bets are that you will take your money back!
Al

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

:goodpost:

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

:goodpost::goodpost:

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

It seems to me that the Alice's definition of what the EUC should be is correct. However Martinsa Fadesa (MF) went into Administration (ie semi bankruptcy) and therefore was not willing/unable to meet the cost of maintaining those elements of the urbanization which are outside the areas covered by the various Communities and Intercommunities. As Alice says, the Town Hall and MF set up the EUC to cover this cost. Whether or not this was legal is beyond my legal expertize. What I would say, however, is that the manner in which the EUC has been run seems to me to be highly suspect.

It then boils down to whether of not the costs involved in maintaining the urbanisation should have been provided by the Town Hall. If there were services provided which are above those that should reasonably have been provided from our local taxes, then somebody else has to pay for these. What concerns me is that if there is now a legal battle over this issue, there is a danger that no maintenance will be provided at all, and that those areas of the urbanisation that are outside those covered by the Communities/Intercommunities will in time deteriorate very badly. I don't want that to happen and if the only way of stopping is to continue to pay my EUC subs, then that's the option I want, regardless of legality of the EUC.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

:goodpost: You have my support!

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

AliceB has described the situation exactly as I/we understand it.

And EsuriJohn has described well the concern that any non-payer of the EUC might have. In having paid for a considerable period and then defaulted once, perhaps he was an easier target for the Ayuntamiento to find than anyone who hasn't paid the EUC from the outset.

Those principled people who refuse to pay this allegedly illegal tax may be keen to further vindicate their stance by checking their status at the Servicio de Gestión Tributaria de Huelva website at www.sgth.es.

By clicking the 'Pago de Impuestos' link on the yellow menu, and then clicking on your own bank logo from the choice then appearing, and subsequently entering your account details, anyone can check the status of their tax payments (IBI, Renta, etc). It is interesting to note that the EUC tax doesn't appear in that summary....whether paid or unpaid.

We are not expert at the minutiae of the workings of this site, or how the 'connection' between the public sector offices and the banks actually works, so maybe we're missing something.

Maybe someone else has explored more deeply and can offer further evidence one way or the other about how and where any EUC payments are recorded and administered? Or maybe our new legal friend Pablo can offer an overview or comment?

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

We also meant to acknowledge that Carol Taff makes a good point here as well. However, it is worth reminding everyone that we ALREADY PAY a higher rate of IBI for services beyond the 'normal' Ayamonte-based taxpayer. And so the argument we are being asked to pay twice (or is it three times, given the payment to Giahsa as well?) for a single set of services still stands.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

:goodpost:

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

It may not appear on the website but it most certainly did when I went to the Gestior to provide new bank account details. They promptly printed a statement for me showing IBI I had failed to pay (my previous thread re IBI on plots) PLUS a full listing of all unpaid EUC fees. Happy days!!

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Well, the thing is that the EUC payment is not a public tax, it is not even a tax, but a fee called "tasa" or "cuota de conservación/urbanización" (like a private tax). It was imposed by the EUC on the 31th December 2008 on the first EUC General Meeting when everyone there (Ayamonte representatives, Fadesa representatives and a few others called to that meeting...) voted for it. (I was not there, I just saw it in the minutes of that meeting during my research). Thus, it was declared as binding for everybody and the power to collect it was given by delegation to the "Agencia Tributaria" with the implied power to enforce it and any non-payments (this delegation is one of the very few things legal in this story). In this situation, Hacienda has the ability to cross data, but the fact is that everything is such a mess (we say in Spanish a "totum revolutum"), that there may be apartments and owners not registered as so in the "catastro" and in the EUC Registry. I guess there is still the initial division made by the "Plan Parcial Sector nº1 de Puente Esuri" and sometimes they find iimpossible to cross data.

I can give my personal experience. My family bought our house in 2008, but since that year we were never required to pay either the IBI or the EUC maintenance fee, even when the sale contract was done legally, with a notary and registered properly. It was not until we went to the "Catastro" and the Ayamonte council in 2012 voluntarily to declare this apartment was ours and put it in our name (again) that we were required to pay the IBI and the EUC payment. In this case, we were required to pay the IBI since 2009 (although without any overcharge since we declare voluntarily), but we were never asked to pay the EUC maintenace fee of the prior years.

I hope this helps.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

:thumbdown: I think its clear from the discussion that there are grave concerns about the EUC. Nothing new there! I have no legal expertise, but I would pay 1 years maintenance to put them to the test legally. Even if it turns out that we were wrong in our concerns. So I salute the initiative to take them to court. I hope in the event that we go ahead, others will also put their money down as well as talking about it.

:nod: CERA was originally set up properly and legally to 'take on' the EUC and also represent residents needs. One huge disappointment for me was that it was IMO 'scuppered'. I mentioned this here http://britishexpats.com/forum/showp...02&postcount=1

:nod: The new CERA board - I hope and believe - are going back to the original objectives and will become a true residents association.

:nod: I contacted CERA yesterday about this (they already knew) and they will discuss at today's meeting.

:nod: If we take on this 'colossus' of the EUC/Town hall - we need 1) a properly targeted plan/strategy - from (2) a single group - with (3) the backing of the residents. For me there is only 1 option for that (today - see below) = CERA.

:nod: I think we have to be careful not to overpromise/underdeliver. Whilst I would love to have all our Direct Debit (DD) payments of the EUC charge returned. I cant see where it would come from, and I cant set any personal expectation that we will ever see that money. Especially with the timescales involved to get anything done - let alone a legal case. Though of course I will take it if it turns out that EUC is proved to be illegal, and the money was found 'somewhere'. Return of payments taken by an illegal organisation has to be a major objective as part of the overall legal strategy

:nod: If they win any case, then we have to accept their legality. However I would pay 1 years EUC fee - just to see them taken to court and hopefully proved illegal, appropriate punishments made and a stop to the on-going payments. Anything extra like return of payments is icing on the very tasty cake!

:nod: If CERA go ahead and there is a proper plan... I will continue the DD - whilst EUC are tested in court... and will also pay 1 years EUC to the lawsuit fund.

:nod: But CERA is my gatepost... I trust them to analyse this and make a recommendation. I am not selling them here - but feel they need to given the chance to either run this or recommend this initiative. Without their backing, I wont be involved.

:nod: If 'New-CERA' goes the way of the old one... I really hope not... then I will re-examine options and would still be open to paying 1 years EUC fee for a legal action against them, with a properly targeted programme with the backing of a good group of residents and a good legal team

Jon

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

:goodpost:
I welcome all the replies that I have read on this forum regarding the EUC. It is good to have information and discussion.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Jon, sounds and looks like a pretty HARD SELL... which can tend to have the opposite effect to a lot of people... best leave individuals to make up their own minds.
Not everyone wants to "join your group" :thumbdown:
You seem pretty keen to force this action down this path - it will have a detrimental effect on the initial proposal made by Pablo Vicente, who after all is a legal representative and undoubtedly knows a thing or two about how to proceed along this route.
Why not let Pablo proceed and let people decide how they want to proceed with him, no need to force the issue Jon.;)

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Sorry you see it this way. Its just my personal plan of action regarding this lawsuit- of course there are many other paths to take and I certainly don't want to push anyone... or doubt that anyone would be pushed by me on this! I don't think I am forcing anything and have absolutely no power to do so. But if you see it that way, I apologise. The post above is my thinking and what I personally intend to follow.

Pablo will proceed as he wishes, of course, and like everyone else, I will read any proposal with interest... and hope it gets the OK from CERA.

Having had a very upsetting experience with our lawyer for our CE purchase, and being away from CE, and being wary of lawyers, I personally need some sort of confirmation of his plans from someone 'on the ground'/'in the know' and personally feel that our residents association are the ones to give it - they have legal people on board. Their feedback of this legal proposal, that will affect us all, is nothing to do with being in a 'group'... its their judgement I need for this - not their camaraderie.

I'm sure that Pablo is totally professional and capable, but I also think this is also a hard sell saying that we will get our money back too... The money is spent, the council is in debt and the only way to get the dosh that I can see is by raising taxes in Ayamonte, that will not make us in CE very popular. Or perhaps there is another way to return what millions(?) over the past few years?

The original post was (to me) a kind of like a 'cold call' as well. But of course each person will have their own criteria to decide on this. My personal ultimate goal is to get the EUC into a court and in front of a judge... and as I said getting a refund isn't my personal primary goal... but needs to be part of the legal strategy (which Pablo has confirmed.)

After all, if its a good proposal there's no need for CERA to shoot it down... and then I'm reaching for my checkbook! But if that were to happen, then I'm sure many people will join the group taking EUC to court...

Jon

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

:goodpost:

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Personally I feel that it's wrong to put all our faith in cera, they have proven to be a waste of space in the past..... Only interested in fundraising events.... I do agree with Jon that the new board looks on paper to be better and having spoken to some of them I see they have good intention but I agree with Alice, this should be based on an individual property basis, we need as many people involved individually as possible. I do think cera should be involved but I also think if just left to them it wouldn't work.... We have a professional legally qualified guy here willing to front this action and we should all embrace this offer and support him fully.:thumbsup:

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Lets be clear. I am putting my 'faith' in CERA.. and giving them some time and space to prove themselves as a residents association. The last incarnation (as Ive said) was a huge disappointment to me. If this one fails then I'm done, fed-up... and doubt I will ever be a member of another group on CE. I was a member at Jags.. and that lasted long!

I've decided personally that I will join this lawsuit once CERA give their OK. And I have my wallet out and ready, and its not that thin either!

We've had so many disappointments in CE, that I personally don't want to immediately jump on board a legal action, proposed on the forum from someone who may be the best lawyer in the world. Its business, I think there is a possibility (only) that the OP was a 'cold call' for business.. I think there was a heavy sell as well promising return of all that we paid... if we join in and pay up.

There's nothing wrong in this ... you have to start somewhere... and as I said I 'salute this initiative'.

Others will have different decision criteria.. great! And we still need to see a proper proposal for this ... which is more than grand promises to return millions. I still don't see where this money would come from... Hence... I am cautions of a possible hard sell. You only have to turn the TV on to get bombarded with ads for lawyers offering so much

I would pay at least a years EUC charge to see them in court, and be tested properly. Even if we fail! But we need a strategy for this that makes sense.

I really hope Pablo and his company are the people to take this on.. but I personally need some confirmation that this is the right path. All CERA have to do is say that this is OK... nothing else.

Otherwise I'll have expectations again and pay money and possibly get burned.. again!

Jon

PS I know quite a few Esurians and I don't know one person that would be in any way 'forced' by me even in face to face discussions. Let alone on a public forum on a topic as big as this... they are all big boys and girls with their own minds...

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Again, thanks to you all for contributions and this initial welcome and support to this initiative. All these comments help me even more and encourage me in my engagement with you and this class action.

I just wanted to clarify a point, I did not promise that you will receive everything you have paid, I never do that in my profession. I said literally "we are going to ask not only to stop payments of the “fee”, but also to have back all the money already paid plus interests (or the cancellation of any debt incurred) for all of you." (see my post in first page). I think there is a difference between asking and promising. On the other hand, this iwould be the inevitably consequence of suing the EUC and the fee, so if we prevail in the lawsuit, and the fee is declared illegal, void since the very beginning, the Court necessary would declare and force the Ayamonte Council to pay all the fees already paid. That´s it.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Thank you Pablo for correcting me - and clarifying this point.

Also for answering my earlier question that the Ayamonte council would have to pay us back... if we prevail. This point is very important to me.

Believe me.... I really hope to see you put the EUC in front of a judge! I just am not 'man-enough' to sign up right away and need some 'hand holding'! That is simply a confirmation (for me personally) from CERA. 'Nuff said.

Good luck

Jon

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Jon, that's well and good and is your own personal opinion,,, and obviously the rest of those big boys and girl in CE will equally determine their own opinions all based on their personal experiences and knowledge. And all without being forced by anybody…
You say, your own preference is, as an individual, to wait for the "ok" from CERA but Jon, seriously, even you seem to agree that the "old CERA" was less useful than a chocolate teapot and granted you want to give the "new CERA" a chance,,, and in this you are right,,,
But what use do you seriously think this new crowd will do? Are they going to research the legalities and illegalities, the constitution, the past paperwork and so on, in order to make their determination as to whether a fully qualified and legal body has any chance to progress with this initiative. What legal standing does this “new CREA” have in order to analyse this initiative in order to offer their “ok”… to you. If any of this new CERA had that knowledge, experience and more importantly, inclination, they would have forced this issue years ago, instead of watching the old CERA organise parties and send flowers to processions in Ayamonte.
Was cancelling the EUC discussed at your meeting last week? or were flower and parties talked about...?

To imply that PabloVicente’s motives are to cold call and drum up trade is an insult and simply shows your own cynicism and naivety. PabloVicente is new to this forum and unknown to probably anyone involved with this forum. All you have to do is look at his web site,, his business is several hundred miles from Costa Esuri so it seems most likely that your implication is way out of order and quite seriously uncalled for.
Whereas your hard sell for CERA was not intending to drum up business, was it? :thumbdown:
Put your faith there but don’t expect everyone else to follow suit. Sometimes the soft sell works better.

You mentioned lots of disappointments; all of which were mostly due to the rumours, gossiping and speculation which spreads like wildfire on this forum and around CE - rose tinted glasses spring to mind.
If people would just look at the facts and figures and add a little common sense, then there would be less to be disappointed in because the reality of the situation would prevail.

PabloVince has already replied to your comment about the “promise”. There were no guarantees or promises in his initial post.
There is never a guarantee with any legal action, so anyone who joins in the class action will need to understand that before entering into the process.
A legal body has offered to campaign against a serious injustice which has affected every property owner in Costa Esuri; obviously caution is necessary before joining in on any campaign but that’s what questions, answers and information gathering is for….
Give the man a chance… and let’s not be so arrogant to try to tell him how to do his job.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Wow I never thought you and I would have a barney ...

This is a 'two-bottler', I think to chat about together over a few glasses - I'll get them both!

I never did insult Pablo. I talked about the possibility, in bold text, coloured text, highlighted text etc

As a seasoned forum user - you have seen many cases of people marketing on the forum.. so it is a obviously a possibility to consider. You call it 'naivety' strangely enough I think of it diametrically opposite - 'experience'. I think you are wrong here.

Also my business experience tells me that knowing the clients concerns are the best way to counter them.. as a professional Pablo has had to deal with far worse, and my comments wont phase a true pro. He will know how to handle them. Converting concerned people is a big win and proves someones credibility.

Pablo has said he wants to speak to CERA... so maybe this discussion has made that happen. Cant be a bad thing can it? Also I have said several times that I hope Pablo takes them to court - I want him to get the business, (and as said several times also, I am prepared to pay!) but for me personally (for reasons that you reject), I need that OK from CERA. Others wont need it ... you wont. And you think I'm a plonker for needing it - when I should be able to make up my own mind.

Again its not 'my' CERA, the meeting was not attended by me, in fact I am not even a member yet as I will pay my dues next week.

Why am I paying dues - because I want to give them a chance. And surprisingly I live in hope. You have already decided against them... You say that my posts may influence people, but if your argument is true your posts will too. So if you're right, many people will feel concerned or even negative, like you, about CERA now. You make some of the best arguments on this sub-forum, and people (like me) give you a lot of time/respect... even if we disagree.

I suspect we agree on a lot more stuff than the stuff we disagree on.

Jon

3rd bottle on you:)

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Jon/Alice
you need to get a room!
Take some chill pills with your plonk

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

:goodpost:

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

Jon, its not a barney is it :(,,, just because there is an opposing view, isn’t it just healthy debate,,!
Sincere apology to you, for anything which may have caused any offence.,.. :)
Seems like the topic has turned into a debate about the CREA,, who are getting a lot of free advertising! And even you are not a member... On this one, lets agree to disagree,, and later on one of us can say told you so..
PabloVicente was probably going to speak to CERA anyway, as a professional it seems likely he had always intended to cover all bases for maximum exposure.

Thinking you're a plonker,,, no,,,, that’s not my style.... Neither is influencing in either direction,, facts and figures are always the best way to go. At the end of the day, everyone makes up their own mind and using your own gut feeling is always going to be your own best option.

So, let’s make up ;) and get back on topic,,, whatever way it unfolds my sincere hope is that PabloVicente receives a lot of support from all corners of Costa Esuri.:fingerscrossed:
Al

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

:goodpost:
Agreed: and if I went overboard, sorry... And to any readers that I might have annoyed. EUC = emotive stuff!

Looking fwd to more details of Pablos proposal, and really hope to see the EUC oficially answering to us all about their 'activities' over the past few years.

Still pals, of course and looking forward to meeting up very soon over a glass or two.:drinkingpals:

Jon

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

If I could play Devil's Advocate for a bit, hopefully bring a bit of balance.

Firstly, I would suggest that there is actually a need for an organisation like the EUC ought to be. After all, when Martinsa Fedesa went bust Ayamonte was left with a big problem - who was going to pay for the ongoing maintenance of a half completed development? I have a lot of sympathy for the view of the average Ayamontino - as expressed by the Town Hall and the Mayor - why should the citizens of Ayamonte pick up the costs? In their view, rightly or wrongly, a load of rich Brits, Madrilenos and Sevillanos had been investing in property on their doorstep, many of whom were buying off-plan and hoping to flip a profit on their investment and end up with a relatively cheap home in the sun. It all went pear shaped through no fault of Ayamonte and yet the Costa Esurians were starting to demand that the Town Hall pick up the costs.

The Mayor, again rightly or wrongly, saw that the creation of an organisation specifically to look after CE - paid for by all the property owners - was a possible fair solution. The Spanish property laws do provide for such an organisation and there are many throughout Spain. This is where it gets murky. As we all know when politicians get involved nothing is simple. The EUC was proposed, a meeting called and a voting quorum achieved which brought the EUC into being. The process was rushed through and was certainly not transparent and, therefore, is open to all sorts of criticism - one of which is that it was not done legitimately. However, the EUC was duly registered, arrangements for fee collection made with the Tributaria and a board of management elected (or self-selected if you will). MF was a major player on the EUC as is the Town Hall, which is only right as they actually have the responsibility. They, however, neglected one vital factor - the owners!

The owners were, and still are, furious. Many are refusing to pay the dues. The EUC, therefore, has insufficient funds which means it is unable to carry out the things it should be doing. This makes the residents even more cross especially as one of the biggest owners (MF themselves) is also not making its contribution. We have a vicious circle, or rather a downward spiral. The only victims will be us - the owners - if this does not get resolved.
IMHO the only way that Costa Esuri is going to survive, let alone flourish, is if the basic maintenance and services are carried out properly – and this needs money. Until there is sufficient income from IBI from CE then it seems to me unreasonable for the citizens of Ayamonte to carry the cost as they get very little real benefit (there are not enough long-term residents and healthy tourism to have any significant impact on Ayamonte’s economy at the moment - maybe in the future??).

However much we as owners may not like the way the EUC was foisted on us and dispute its legitimacy, it is arguably technically legal. The class action proposed will test the legal opinion of counsel for the EUC against the legal opinion of some owners at great length and cost. We are all aware of how long legal proceedings take in any jurisprudence. And to what end? If the plaintiffs win then it will be a pyrrhic victory since there is no money in the pot to pay back, let alone pay the legal costs. In the meantime Costa Esuri will no longer have what little maintenance and services it can currently afford and will be a wasteland.

Let’s try and be realistic. I understand how angry and frustrated the owners and residents are, I share that anger and frustration. But we may be in danger of cutting off our noses to spite our faces in trying to punish Martinsa Fadesa for all its failings and bad faith.

The EUC exists, however flawed, and it would be a much wiser investment of any legal argument, time and expense to FIX it and get it working for the benefit of the residents and owners as well as the Town Hall. The statutes of the EUC are fatally flawed and are totally undemocratic – they have been gerrymandered to ensure the survival of a small power clique around MF and therefore the EUC does not fairly represent the interests of all the parties. The statutes need to be changed – and quickly (there are many examples similar organisations, which work, to use as examples). New and open elections need to be conducted as soon as possible and most importantly the legal status needs to be clarified and everybody should start making their contributions. Otherwise Costa Esuri will soon be bankrupt and all our investments, homes and holiday homes will be worthless.

An approach might be if PabloVicente were to work with CERA – maybe as counsel for CERA (on a pro-bono basis !!;);)) – in its dealings with the EUC. Give the new improved CERA committee a chance to perform. After all CERA was originally set up to stand up to the EUC and is legally constituted. At least one of the committee is an intercommunity president and therefore has a seat as of right on the EUC board (although because of the inequity of the statutes is effectively disenfranchised). I believe CERA has 200/300 members now, distributed 50:50 between Spanish and Foreign residents and is therefore pretty representative. IMHO it is time to put aside past prejudices for the common good of Costa Esuri. Give CERA the support and legal advice it needs to take on the EUC and win the concessions necessary to make the EUC democratic and truly representative and make Costa Esuri a great place to live!

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

First of all I would like to thank MikeJ for making what is a very reasoned and well argued case, without emotional or histrionic comments. While agreeing with many of his statements I have added here my own slightly differing views and observations.

Initially, I am not totally convinced of the need for an EUC. Without a thorough review of the accounts, it is difficult to say What monies are necessary to provide maintenance and development services to Costa Esuri. MikeJ also seems to overlook that as residents/owners in Costa Esuri we pay our rates to the town hall in the same way as do other Ayamontinos. Also, residents, permanent or temporary, make a significant contribution to the economy of Ayamonte. We are not asking the citizens of Ayamonte (which includes residents of Costa Esuri) to "pick up the costs".

I am also not sure that the initiative for the creation of the EUC can be laid at the door of the Mayor. If you bought directly from Fadesa, you will see in your legal documents the proposal for the EUC. If you bought from someone else, that clause is probably not there. That is why several residents who purchased their properties from a non-Fadesa company were advised by their lawyers not to pay any EUC fees.

The EUC board, as MikeJ says, was "elected" without any transparency. Fadesa have no place on this board at all and we also have other non-residents voting on our future. Indeed many residents are concerned that there is aa apparent clear conflict of interest in at least one of the board members voting to award contracts in areas of his own business interests.

I am not arguing that there should not be an EUC. What I am strongly advocating is that we get rid of the one we have got and replace it, if necessary, with something better. It is clear that we will not achieve that while the current EUC board consists mainly of people who do not have the interests of Costa Esuri uppermost in their minds. I personally also believe that that this will not be achieved without legal action. There are far too many vested interests at work on the EUC board and as far as I can see, no democratic process by which we can influence any EUC meetings or policies. As MikeJ correctly states, we, as owners/residents are effectively disenfranchised. One hope I do have is that Fadesa will soon cease to be as a business. That will create vacancies on the board and perhaps a chance for us as residents to gain direct representation and information.

The class action is, in my opinion at least, is probably the only way to get rid of the current incumbents. I am told, but I have not verified this information, that Isla Canela "got rid" of their EUC through legal action. If this is true it shows it is possible. Even if we were successful, we would need to act quickly and legally to set up a new EUC, if that is what we want. That actually raises a very important question - do we know what we (Costa Esurians) want or need?

This issue should be at the very top of the agenda for any and all CERA meetings. If it is not, then what is CERA for? I agree that they should, if at all possible work with PabloVicente, although we should realise that there may be some cost involved. But equally, CERA is a vehicle for debating and agreeing a way forward on this subject.

So after all the above, I would fully endorse MikeJ's final paragraph. If any member of the CERA executive committee is reading this forum can we have a considered reply please. If none is forthcoming I am sure that someone can present the case to CERA in the near future.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

What a super post with which I totally agree! It was with some relief that I read such an in-depth, accurate, common-sensical, well-argued, analysis of this issue, so different from most of the previous, rather shallow, often inaccurate utterances. IMHO it is better to continue to feed the goose, but to prod it in order to try to get it to lay some golden eggs, rather than kill it.

I also agree with much of what MikeCol says. However, I feel that if we get rid of the EUC prior to forming a replacement, it is likely to result in the latter element never happening, and that would not do us any good. I agree that CERA should hoist aboard this issue , but I do not see then achieving much more than just being a discussion forum.

Re: EUC Costa Esuri. Class action
 

The recent minutes of the meeting between the Deputy Mayor and CERA on 9th June give some cause for optimism, and IMHO it would be much better to fix the existing EUC, rather than killing it and starting again. It depends on the good intentions turning into achievable actions and goals in a reasonable timeframe.

We can all see the effects of throwing out an organisation without having a ready made replacement to immediately take over, on the Golf Course.