jimenato

Make sure the opening reading of each bill is equal to the closing reading of the previous bill. There is a circumstance under which they might be different which will cost you money. Be particularly careful if you have a large estimated bill and it turns out to be larger than two months actual usage.

Jontee

I never thought to check that - have you had a problem?

jimenato

Yes. We had a large estimated bill - 400 Euros for a month - we only use about 100 Euros. The reason for this is probably that the previous occupier used much more than us last year so the estimates this year are high.

So we would expect to pay nothing for at least the next two months while the overpayment is exhausted.

Sure enough, month two - no bill. This is correct. They will have read the metre, found we had used 'negative' electricity and not billed us.

But then they do the wrong thing - they use the actual reading at end of month two as the opening reading for month three - they should bring forward the opening reading instead because it is the higher of the two. They then do an estimate as usual - another 400+ Euros even though we still are in credit.

Effectively you lose the last part of your overpayment - everything beyond the end of month two.

Now I've got to a) sort out my bill with our landlord and b) somehow convey all this to Endesa.

I wonder what the software systems consultancy rates are for this sort of thing at the moment - 1500 per day?

amideislas

Worse, they take the money from your account before you have any chance to dispute the overcharges (presuming you established the "mandatory" direct debit), and getting it back is next to impossible. We blocked direct debit to Endesa at the bank for that very reason. Now we can verify the facturas before paying them - and so far it's working :-)

avocados

You will find that they will eventually issue "month 2" bill and make the necessary adjustments for the "overcharge".

We had exactly this problem in July/August and Sept last year.
Our "month 2" bill was issued a few weeks AFTER "month 3" so as to make the required adjustment in units used versus estimated.
Of course, they also have to make the normal standing charges for the missing month etc.

So if you have patience, it'll probably resolve itself.

Additionally, all bills from April 2013 will be bi-monthly and have real readings only. No more estimates.

snikpoh

Is this now law? Iberdrola tell me that if they can't gain access to the meters (they're in a cupboard in the block of flats and, despite being able to be read from outside - they won't), then they will estimate them!

I have this argument with them all the time. When they over-estimate, they refuse to give a refund stating that it will 'all come out in the wash'. Well, the last estimate for the shared lighting on the stairs, will take about 5 years to 'come out in the wash'!

amideislas

Well, that would be nice (and in the unlikely event they charge what you really owe them, could only represent a loss for Endesa).

"Estimado" has traditionally been a godsend for Endesa to the tune of €millions. It enables them to save the cost of reading the meter, charge as much as they feel they can get away with (after all, it's only an "estimate"), subject customers to an ineffective dispute process, and/or discreetly defer "actual" charges until they are able to charge at future (higher) rates.

For years, they've been obliged by law to read the meter at least every few months, but we haven't had a "real" meter reading since 2011, which makes me suspect this radical new concept in billing means basically, nothing.

Besides, even if it is enforced, they'll likely round up previous "estimated" bills for the past couple of years to the current rates, so all those "estimated" bills since 2011 will likely be re-calculated at 2013 rates, and charged accordingly (Not possible? It's not the first time it's happened).

We all like to point fingers at the banks for "fiddling" with the numbers, but Endesa is every bit as guilty and does it with even more impunity than the banks.

EDIT: Endesa's profits hover around €5bil per annum. They certainly have the resources to manage an effective billing system, and to ensure that the customer isn't defrauded. It's not as though they are struggling. I simply cannot bring myself to believe it's a "billing error" or "bug".

But in these cases of over-billing, the burden of proof always rests on the customer. I've yet to find an Abogado who is eager to take any case against them. They all seem to want to avoid Endesa. And of course, there's no such thing as a class-action lawsuit in Europe.

At the end of the day, there's little political will to keep them honest, so why spend the resources to do so?

snikpoh

... and, for 'ENDESA' read 'ENDESA/IBERDROLA'.

They're all as bad as each other and do much the same as each other.

jimenato

Well, that's a bloody stupid way of doing things and I speak as a 25 years of service systems analyst specialising in accounting systems. They should bill the standing charges every month but not recommence charging for units until the estimated reading has been reached and passed. Easy to do and everyone would understand it.

notacontrathinker

Because of the remoteness of my urbanization, Endesa have fitted every house here with new meters which automatically report back with the actual reading. It must be done by wifi or voodoo as there are no telephone wires allowed in this National park. I get a real bill every month now, and very nice too !

However, when they fitted me with the new meter in September, they sent me two bills for that month, one for up to the old meter reading and one for the reading for the new meter.

At the time Endesa were clawing back prices from the last year, which showed as -

Adjuste precios 4t 2011
Adjuste precios 1t 2012

I know what they are, and I know why they are doing it, but I ended up paying 5 equal payments in the four months of the clawback because I had two bills in September, both showing the amounts.

Could any Endesa user please let me know if they had 5 payments of the adjustment or 4.

It's not so much for me, but it might be worthwhile tipping off my Spanish pensioner vechinos.

Yes, we analysts certainly do know how to take a bill apart !

jimenato

We had 5 - August to December's bills included them.

Those meters work on WiFi I believe. People are protesting about them in some areas of the world (don't know about Spain). People believe that they are dangerous as are mobile phone masts, HT power lines etc as they are filling the air with electrosmog and killing them with magnetism.

These people are known as 'Magnuts'.

ETA apparently it's not WiFi as we know it but either long range radio or mobile phone technology. Either way the magnuts don't like it.

notacontrathinker

Many thanks for looking Jimenato.

So it is likely to be WIFI, is it ? It probably explains why I got access to the Internet 2 months after the meter was fitted, despite 5 years of bomb threats to Telefonica.

And, I would rather be fried by my meter than spend half a hour on the phone complaining to Endesa customer services.

Thanks again.

Domino

not saying I agree with them, but I don't necessarily disagree either.
we are all wading through the electronic smog, sleeping in it, generating it ourselves with our phones, etc.

just that the levels are so microscopic that our bodies don't recognise it although I am sure there are some animals that might.

getting an RF burn from touching high power radio aerials can be nasty - imagine your hand is piece of pork in a microwave then turn it on for a few seconds and feel the change in temperature.


but it is about time the utilities started using technology to its fullest, although it may mean unemployment for the meter readers

Fred James

It's not WiFi, it's Power Line Communication.

They can send the signals down the power cables just like you do with domestic network extenders which plug into your mains system and transmit data around the house.

notacontrathinker

As I said "Voodoo" !