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Does austerity lead to crime?

Does austerity lead to crime?

Old Nov 15th 2011, 5:12 pm
  #76  
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

Originally Posted by Domino
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich, was
born Prince of Greece and Denmark in Corfu on 10 June 1921
He was born the only son of Prince Andrew of Greece. His paternal family is of Danish descent - Prince Andrew was the grandson of King Christian IX of Denmark.

His mother was Princess Alice of Battenberg, the eldest child of Prince Louis of Battenberg and sister of Earl Mountbatten of Burma.

It was also recently announced he had been appointed Lord High Admiral.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/thecurrentro...edinburgh.aspx
Yeah I know who he is, if I didn't I wouldn't have asked the slightly rhetorical question in the first place.
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Old Nov 15th 2011, 6:18 pm
  #77  
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

Sort of going back to the original concept of the thread I got into a conversation today with a coupe of people regarding austerity and dealing with it and a subsequent conversation with my mother sort of opened my eyes. Now she isn't an old lady, she is in her 60's, and she was born in a two bedroomed tenement in Chatham, her father was a dock worker, her mother cleaned other peoples homes for extra money.... and there were 9 children including my mum (big Scottish families!) in a two bed home with two other people. Mum had no running water, no hot water and they had accounts at every single shop that were never in credit, my mum and her younger brother used to follow the coal truck and steal the fallen coal.... the strain of this life killed my grandmother with an aneurism at a very early stage, mum was only 9, which meant that as the youngest girl she took over the household duties.... Now I could go on, but I wont, needless to say she got through it and is stronger from the experience. Now my point is this, you tell me a family, right now in this country who has to go through this... and my mums story is neither a one off nor unique, there was a whole street of people, whole neighborhood who lived under the same, if not worse conditions. I wonder how many of those who are screaming blue murder now are in the position of chasing coal trucks just to heat their homes.... I'm sure they will reply duly on their Blackberry's and iPhones.....
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Old Nov 15th 2011, 6:27 pm
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

Originally Posted by rugbymatt
Did you watch "Greek for a Week" mate?

There was a financial analyst on there who was saying that if we had a black money market like Greece we would see a reduction of around £70 billion from the tax takings of the UK.... thats roughly the budget of the NHS, the Police force and much of the MoD combined gone.... I wonder how many people would moan once there isn't a police force to call and complain that some thieving pikey has nicked their tools or plasma tv!
Couln't risk having my blood pressure pushed that high tbh. What really, really grips my shit is that I bet most of them were stuffed to the hilt with black money but were also demanding public services (like police etc)

Talk about wanting it both ways.
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Old Nov 15th 2011, 6:31 pm
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
Most ppl.seem to be of the view that fiddling taxes is hardly a crime at all, especially in view of the way they believe the govt is fiddling them.

Whether or not fiddling is justifiable is debatable often depending on how you view the govts conduct, however having had some experience of tax regimes in a few other N. EU countries, I have come to the conclusion that our UK tax regime is not quite so bad after all.
I do agree, but at the end of the day, if the great and the good want us to be honest and pay our taxes with 100% honesty, then they need to show that their hands are clean.

Caesar's wife, and all that.
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Old Nov 15th 2011, 7:05 pm
  #80  
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

Originally Posted by rugbymatt
Sort of going back to the original concept of the thread I got into a conversation today with a coupe of people regarding austerity and dealing with it and a subsequent conversation with my mother sort of opened my eyes. Now she isn't an old lady, she is in her 60's, and she was born in a two bedroomed tenement in Chatham, her father was a dock worker, her mother cleaned other peoples homes for extra money.... and there were 9 children including my mum (big Scottish families!) in a two bed home with two other people. Mum had no running water, no hot water and they had accounts at every single shop that were never in credit, my mum and her younger brother used to follow the coal truck and steal the fallen coal.... the strain of this life killed my grandmother with an aneurism at a very early stage, mum was only 9, which meant that as the youngest girl she took over the household duties.... Now I could go on, but I wont, needless to say she got through it and is stronger from the experience. Now my point is this, you tell me a family, right now in this country who has to go through this... and my mums story is neither a one off nor unique, there was a whole street of people, whole neighborhood who lived under the same, if not worse conditions. I wonder how many of those who are screaming blue murder now are in the position of chasing coal trucks just to heat their homes.... I'm sure they will reply duly on their Blackberry's and iPhones.....
Yeh right enough though I doubt that there are very many around today who even have a clue what real poverty and austerity are all about.
Having probably a few more miles on the clock than yourself and originating from a poor area I can well understand your sentiments.
Most of the kids at my first school were dressed in little more than raggy clothes full of holes, a bit different to todays expensive overpriced designer gear which strangely enough all of them now seem to be able to afford.
If a kid turned up at school with the luxury of an apple, there would immediately be a crowd aound him shouting and begging for the gowk/core when he'd done.

There was one family of eighteen similar to the TV Waltons,(same name actually), but much worse off, who mainly had to fend for themselves as their parents virtually lived in the local pub. No running water or electric on a broken down old farm and they had to walk over two miles across rough country to get to school each day.
Despite being dragged up, or maybe because of it, almost every one of them, bar one who wasn't very bright, made good for themselves, some still running their own businesses even now.

With regard to following the coal wagons, we used to be sent out most days by the schoolmaster to scrape up coal from the edge of a bend in the road where the opencast coal trucks regularly shed some of their load.
He always told us it was for the school stove to help keep us warm, though we were well aware that the stove only used coke, while his own house had a coal fire burning almost right around the clock.

Oh to answer the original topic question virtually every door in the village remained permanently unlocked back then, so crime was almost unknown.
It was customery for families to keep the weeks pay packet in a pot on the mantlepiece and I recall only one single occasion when it was said to have been stolen, though bearing in mind that the man about the house was both a big gambler and drinker who knows ?

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Old Nov 15th 2011, 8:01 pm
  #81  
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

I spent some younger years in a poor area on the outskirts of Glasgow. It was a rough place where poverty prevailed.

The answer was simple, people stole to feed their children, and it wasn't just coal from the local coal merchant, they stole everything that could be stolen and got on their bikes to travel further afield when there was nothing left to steal in their area.

The same people would have gone to work, but there were few jobs; the lucky ones who found employment remained honest. There were no benefits in those days apart from the National Assistance Board, and they couldn't feed the starving population, they didn't have enough resources.

Yet people still dispute the link between poverty and crime, easier to do now that we have a functioning welfare system. But there are still people who fall through the safety net and need more than is provided by the state. They have but one alternative.
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Old Nov 15th 2011, 9:06 pm
  #82  
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

Originally Posted by HBG
I spent some younger years in a poor area on the outskirts of Glasgow. It was a rough place where poverty prevailed.

The answer was simple, people stole to feed their children, and it wasn't just coal from the local coal merchant, they stole everything that could be stolen and got on their bikes to travel further afield when there was nothing left to steal in their area.

The same people would have gone to work, but there were few jobs; the lucky ones who found employment remained honest. There were no benefits in those days apart from the National Assistance Board, and they couldn't feed the starving population, they didn't have enough resources.

Yet people still dispute the link between poverty and crime, easier to do now that we have a functioning welfare system. But there are still people who fall through the safety net and need more than is provided by the state. They have but one alternative.
To be fair though, thats just the Scottish for you.
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Old Nov 15th 2011, 9:32 pm
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

Originally Posted by HBG
I spent some younger years in a poor area on the outskirts of Glasgow. It was a rough place where poverty prevailed.

The answer was simple, people stole to feed their children, and it wasn't just coal from the local coal merchant, they stole everything that could be stolen and got on their bikes to travel further afield when there was nothing left to steal in their area.

The same people would have gone to work, but there were few jobs; the lucky ones who found employment remained honest. There were no benefits in those days apart from the National Assistance Board, and they couldn't feed the starving population, they didn't have enough resources.

Yet people still dispute the link between poverty and crime, easier to do now that we have a functioning welfare system. But there are still people who fall through the safety net and need more than is provided by the state. They have but one alternative.
You still seem desperate to prove your point HBG, despite quite a few views to the contrary including my previous post, which I wonder if you even read.

To my mind true poverty hardly even exists in todays nanny UK State, apart from possibly a few vagrants and winos who resort to sleeping in shop doorways.
Furthermore I'm not sure if you even have a clear understanding of what real poverty truly is.
No doubt there are poorer areas where crime prevails, however this could always have been the case and may well be more down to the permanent mindset that already exists in such areas.
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Old Nov 15th 2011, 10:22 pm
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

Originally Posted by rugbymatt
You know he isn't Greek don't you?
Originally Posted by rugbymatt
Yeah I know who he is, if I didn't I wouldn't have asked the slightly rhetorical question in the first place.
The rhetorical question is usually defined as any question asked for a purpose other than to obtain the information the question asks. For example, "Why are you so stupid?" is likely to be a statement regarding one's opinion of the person addressed rather than a genuine request to know. Similarly, when someone responds to a tragic event by saying, "Why me, God?!" it is more likely to be an accusation or an expression of feeling than a realistic request for information.

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Old Nov 15th 2011, 10:31 pm
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
You still seem desperate to prove your point HBG, despite quite a few views to the contrary including my previous post, which I wonder if you even read.

To my mind true poverty hardly even exists in todays nanny UK State, apart from possibly a few vagrants and winos who resort to sleeping in shop doorways.
Furthermore I'm not sure if you even have a clear understanding of what real poverty truly is.
No doubt there are poorer areas where crime prevails, however this could always have been the case and may well be more down to the permanent mindset that already exists in such areas.
probably right Dick. There may be a few around, like there are in Spain, but the locations of true poverty are nowhere near here at all.

seeing people living in old wooden or even cardboard packing cases on the roof of high rise flats, where they cook in a catering size bean tin, where they drink out of an ordinary bean tin. Tops not taken off cleanly but still with jagged edges. Where they don't know where the next meal is coming from and have no idea how they are going to get it.

the divide between the have's and the havenots in the UK (and Spain) is continually being talked up, but there are more pressing needs in other parts of the world than at home.
no one should be allowed to die of starvation or lack of water, but in many countries where this is happening there are people who are taking their percentage without even doing anything for it.
it isnt white against black, the blacks are very good at doing it to their own, in the same way as the whites are.

sri, makes me angry
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Old Nov 16th 2011, 7:24 am
  #86  
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

When it comes down to it there are three types of people.

Those who would never turn to crime no matter how bad things are.

Those who would turn to crime when they were desperate.

Those who would turn to crime at the drop of a hat.
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Old Nov 16th 2011, 7:29 am
  #87  
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
You still seem desperate to prove your point HBG, despite quite a few views to the contrary including my previous post, which I wonder if you even read.

To my mind true poverty hardly even exists in todays nanny UK State, apart from possibly a few vagrants and winos who resort to sleeping in shop doorways.
Furthermore I'm not sure if you even have a clear understanding of what real poverty truly is.
No doubt there are poorer areas where crime prevails, however this could always have been the case and may well be more down to the permanent mindset that already exists in such areas.
I've read all the posts on this thread including yours. I think it's pointless to pursue the various depths of poverty experienced by each individual commentator, it doesn't take the debate further.

And I agree that there is a mindset in poorer areas which leads to crime, not directly linked to present day poverty levels which are mostly contained by our generous welfare state.

But our generous welfare state is now being demolished by the coalition's austerity cuts, and my argument is simply that those cuts will inevitably lead to an increase in crime.

Rightly or wrongly, over the last decade, people in poorer areas have gotten used to a certain standard if living at unemployment levels that were low, historically. Youth unemployment is set to rise to over a million today (I think), thanks directly to the austerity programme.

That's the big number, youth unemployment. Whether leaving university with a degree, or falling out of some Godforsaken inner city slum school, there will not be enough jobs to go round for either, and their dole money is being cut along with other benefits.

I doubt if those people will be filling the Churches to pray for better times, but they might just take a hard look at the people they think are responsible for their plight, the easily recognisable fat cats sending their kids to Eaton.
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Old Nov 16th 2011, 7:38 am
  #88  
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

I think the problem with this debate is that people are applying the argument to everyone.

Matt and Dick are both right in that there are people who will never commit a criminal act no matter how hard the times.

We all know that there are people who have no qualms about committing criminal acts, whether the times are good or bad.

HBG likewise is quite right in what he says. There will be more crime because that group in the middle is somewhat like a floating voter. Under normal circs they will be law abiding, but if things get tough enough, they will turn to crime.

The size of this middle group, and the extent of how bad things get will determine how much of an increase in crime we see.
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Old Nov 16th 2011, 9:12 am
  #89  
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

Originally Posted by bil
I think the problem with this debate is that people are applying the argument to everyone.

Matt and Dick are both right in that there are people who will never commit a criminal act no matter how hard the times.

We all know that there are people who have no qualms about committing criminal acts, whether the times are good or bad.

HBG likewise is quite right in what he says. There will be more crime because that group in the middle is somewhat like a floating voter. Under normal circs they will be law abiding, but if things get tough enough, they will turn to crime.

The size of this middle group, and the extent of how bad things get will determine how much of an increase in crime we see.
A great assessment of the situation.

I'm not forecasting Armageddon, nor am I focused on too many statistics, and my current knowledge of the UK is limited because I live in Spain.

What I see in Spain is an increase in the amount of fiddling that goes on, small things maybe, but very noticeable.

People that trade entirely legally are disappearing rapidly and minor thefts are on the increase. To get a VAT bill is a virtually impossible, people just laugh and refer to the Crisis. I dread going round the supermarkets where shoplifting is rife, not for expensive luxuries, but for food stuff like cheap mince.

There are a spate of bike thefts at the moment, people chain them up, turn their backs, and the chain is snapped off and the bike has gone. Insurance brokers are going out of business because people don't bother to insure anything any more, especially cars. A Spanish young man can't afford to insure his car, it costs thousands.

And Graffiti? The whole place is smothered with it.

(I witnessed a strange event only yesterday. While sitting outside a cafe in a busy location, I watched an elderly German park his car carefully, away from other cars. He then sat near to us, ordered a beer, and kept an eyes on his nice new car parked only yards away.

A battered old Spanish car suddenly parked next to his and four rowdy youngsters emerged to swagger around the square eyeing up the crumpet. Seeing that there wasn't much around, they returned to their car.

There wasn't much room on the driver's side and the young man deliberately swung his door open to bang into the nice and shiny German car next to him. I had already reluctantly decided that if the elderly German confronted the rowdy youths I might have to help him, but he just sat there looking sad.

After the youths drove off, he walked over to his car and inspected the damage. He came back to his table shaking his grey head. My wife and I got embarrassed, paid the bill and left).
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Old Nov 16th 2011, 3:30 pm
  #90  
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Default Re: Does austerity lead to crime?

Originally Posted by Domino
The rhetorical question is usually defined as any question asked for a purpose other than to obtain the information the question asks. For example, "Why are you so stupid?" is likely to be a statement regarding one's opinion of the person addressed rather than a genuine request to know. Similarly, when someone responds to a tragic event by saying, "Why me, God?!" it is more likely to be an accusation or an expression of feeling than a realistic request for information.

You have to give the link to your source (Wikipedia in this case) when you copy and paste answers.... but thanks for your insightful input.
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