Does austerity lead to crime?
 

I've always thought so. Austerity leads to an increase in poverty and the new poor people will steal to support their family. This article is about Greece, but I think it will equally apply to Spain, and other places where an entire population is suddenly plunged into poverty, and where they sense that there is no end in sight.

I also think that graffiti is linked to crime, and I don't have to walk far to find it where I live.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...796733,00.html

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

When you consider the cases of the Spanish Mayors and the UK MPs, your suggestion seems to fall down just a little bit, though I suppose there may be a few grains of truth in it.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Austerity, or perceived austerity is a great source of dishonesty, as a lot of people start saying 'Why shouldn't I?' and 'What have I got to lose?'

MPs are well paid and can't claim that excuse.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

I'm not talking about MPs or professional thieves, I'm talking about ordinary people who suddenly find themselves destitute in countries without a welfare net as we have in the UK and Germany.

I'm talking about the people I've seen where I live over the past few days. While shopping in a large supermarket I saw ordinary people shoplifting, opening packets of chicken and mince and stuffing the contents inside their clothing.

They're not stealing for profit, they're stealing to live.

I live in a high crime area and my Doberman is on overtime. He's on overtime because of austerity and poverty causing people to turn to crime to feed their families.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

I've seen ppl.stuffing food straight into their mouths before in supermarkets, a bit more of a problem for security to deal with I think.

I doubt there's many of us wouldn't resort to some form of theft, even if only from farmers fields, if ourselves and families were on the point of starvation.
Some families must be fairly desperate considering the lack of back-up in Spain compared to the UK, though as I understand it there are soup kitchens and such places available. I wonder if they are open right around the clock or only have very restricted hours. I don't have much knowledge or experience of what the real picture is, because here I'm located in a very peaceful, sparcely populated backwater where life seems to continue pretty much as normal.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Desperate people do desperate things.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Strangely enough, statistically speaking, in the UK anyway, reported crime goes up during periods of PROSPERITY. People have more to steal.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Some years ago I observed the gentrification of Docklands. I used to drive down The Highway and there was a scruffy block of council flats on one side and a newly built block of Yuppie flats on the other side.

Although high fences protected them, I thought that class war was just around the corner. It never happened because the country prospered and the poor were able to sell their scruffy flats for fortunes and moved to the Essex coast in droves.

It's different now, Maggie's gone, we're skint, and Spain is even skinter.

And my spell check is f'ucked.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Interesting. I read the website of Martin Varsavsky (an Argentinean entrepreneur who's settled in Madrid - the guy behind Jazztel, Fon and many others) and he wrote the following article, quoting oficial figures, that stated crime figures had actually gone down whilst unemployment went up. [in Spanish]

http://spanish.martinvarsavsky.net/m...idad-baja.html

The comments are quite interesting. For example they point out that small scale crimes may longer get reported. Even so, it makes you think.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

According to the recent news, as well as stealing scrap metal from war memorials, thieves are now stealing the same from gravestones. I don't know whether such despicable acts are caused directly by increasing poverty, but suspect they might be.

I often see a local man walking along the edge of the dual carriageway where I live and asked him why. He is looking for discarded stolen handbags that might still have items of value in them, even if it's just the bag itself.

During my daily dog walks I have found several such handbags and shudder when I think of the human tragedy involved in each case. I have returned several to their owners after finding identification correspondence inside them.

I've walked along the same route for years and have never found discarded handbags in such numbers.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Whatever people may say about statistics, the evidence of the handbags, the taste for stealing every item of metal they can lift, all this says to me that crimes DO go up in such times.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Official figures? Isn't that Govspeak for 'lies'.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Well yes, it's probably the way the crime stats are recorded. I read an article in the Evening Standard showing how cable theft has reached amazing high levels, and I'm sure it's at least as bad again in Spain.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...cable-theft.do

What I don't understand from that article is the reference to soaring copper prices. Surely if we're all in recession (or close to it) then demand for raw materials should be going down?

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Supply and demand. It may well be that costs of extraction and processing are rising.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

A close relative returned to the UK recently after six years in Spain. She did have personal and business problems and we accepted those as valid reasons for her return.

At the last tearful farewell, she finally told the truth. A few months ago she had gone to her local cash point, a few minutes walk from her home. It was around 9am and being a street-wise lady she didn't take a handbag. When she walked home after withdrawing 300 Euros, two young men pounced on her, held a knife to her throat and demanded the money she had just withdrawn.

She immediately handed it over and the men calmly walked away. Thinking that we didn't believe her story, she showed us a clearly visible mark on her throat where she had been prodded with the knife.

What made it even worse was that she recognised the young men as former customers in a bar she used to run with her husband. In case anyone thinks it's relevant, the robbers were Spanish.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

I doubt that the fact that so many E.Europeans and N.Africans left Spain when the recession really began to hit is simply a coincidence regarding the drop in crime figures.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Can you imagine what would happen to the English crime figures if all the pikeys went back to Ireland?

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

A difficult one, Bil. The big difference would be if Jamaicans went back home, but the black crime is now being committed by their grandchildren who are as British as you and I.

Anyway, it's dangerous territory. Crime committing Pikeys are a tiny minority of the bigger picture; poverty causes crime, it always has done. Politicians stay clear of the subject, it's an admission of failure on their part.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

I agree that there is no easy answer. Shame really.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

I'd agree, but only up to a point. You can be as poor as a church mouse, but if your parents are strict and you live in a village where everyone can see what you're up to... you probably won't turn to crime. In the city you have a lot more negative peer pressure, oportunity to commit crime etc. Add into the mix fewer opportunities to be gainfully employed in bad times (you try chopping off branches in a city park for firewood), and you have a recipe for wrong-doing.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

If you live in a big city like London, it's dead easy to prove that poverty leads to crime, though not an experiment I would recommend.

Dress as you would for the office, take a briefcase, and walk a mile along the streets at midnight. If you start off at Westminster, you would probably make it, if you kept to the north of the river.

If you started off at Dalston Junction you would be relieved of your briefcase long before the end of your walk.

Hackney is the poorest borough in the land, Westminster the richest. It really is that simple.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

No.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

It's not just burglary, theft that increase during times of recession. People are left frustrated & angry so violent crime will rise also. We are already seeing a resurgence of football hooliganism & this trend will continue to rise as more & more young men discover the channel for their anger.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

In times of financial hardship, this is said to give impetus to the politics of the right.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

So pray tell me how that conclusion is arrived at, as I would have expected the reverse to be the case. ? :confused:

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

1920/30's Germany being a classic example

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Black people steal more than white people.


( Well since we are making unsubstantiated claims I might as well join in)

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

I believe that crime statistics in the US do demonstrate that.

Particularly so for more serious crime. Blacks are 13% of the population but commit 51.2% of the murders.....and it was calculated that a black person is 5.6 times more likely than a white person to be a murderer.

Source here!

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

I don't live in America..... do you?

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

No....but I don't think the UK figures are that different.

Twelve per cent of London’s men are black. But 54 per cent of the street crimes committed by men in London, along with 46 per cent of the knife crimes and more than half of the gun crimes, are thought by the Metropolitan Police to have been committed by black men.

Source HERE!

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Pointless giving me links, I cant open them and don't actually care..... but do they prove that black people steal more that white people of just that more black people are in London than anywhere else, or do they prove that the world is flat? in am honesty I could not care less.... what I do know is that we have been in an apparent recession since 2008 and I'd like to hazard a guess that the crime figures don't hold up what people are claiming to be gospel on this thread.... but like I said, I don't actually care.... what I do know is that times of Austerity tend to force people to reach deep within them and we get more of a sink or swim attitude.... its why we came out of the last one a much stronger nation and why we will come out of this one the same... if you actually believe there is an actual recession that is....

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

I don't think we came out of the last recession a much stronger nation really.
It was the precursor to Blair worming his way in and totally destroying Britain to further his career.

And of course every generation loses a little bit more in decency, integrity, community spirit, work ethic etc.....so put that lot together and I don't see a particular positive future for Britain.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

So you moved to Spain where the future is so much brighter.... right.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Yes......most definitely. We're very happy here.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

That wasn't the question.
Maybe you're ok if you have enough to retire on or a steady job or pension, but it looks far from bright for many Spaniards right now with lots of them moving out of the country to look for work.
Many have gone to Germany and even some to the UK despite its increasing problems.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

"Does austerity lead to crime?" yes I think it does. When there is no work, no hope for your material future anger can turn to violence, substance abuse etc.

Do more 'black' people commit crime? Maybe, but why? Look at where they live, look at what realistic goals they have in life etc. Crime and substance abuse and violence is sky high in poor white communities too.

For you guys and gals who have been in Spain a few years I can assure you that in some smaller communities in the UK there are NO jobs, not much chance of a job anytime soon. I'm not joking when I say no jobs, there are SFA jobs in many parts of the UK. If I were younger and poorly educated with no real hope of a good job (even after training), owning my own home, going to Benidorm for 14 days in the summer I dare say substance taking and maybe even thieving would cross my mind; perhaps I'd do what an increasing number are doing and just top myself. :(

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

it is now being said in Uk that the riots etc in Birmingham started because they saw nothing being done in London to stop them.

if pikeys can fly tip, leave their "temporary" resting places a biohazard tip without any action taken against them, then why should the rest of the population not do it as well ?? (especially as they have to pick up the bill for clearing up after the pikeys)

if the general law abiding population see plenty of examples of people getting away with things then they are also going to go out there and do it as well !!

I don't necessarily say Austerity leads to Crime, but if the "powers that be" are seen to accept or condone or take no action then more will start wanting to be treated the same way. The first tottering step towards anarchy ??

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

The figures for black people in the US and UK committing disproportionate crime and their disproportionate levels if incarceration are always linked to their disproportionate poverty levels. Hackney, Handsworth, Moss Side and Toxteth are poor places, primarily, as well as having high black populations.

I was going to babble on about the abolition of slavery being quite a recent event, but I don't think it's relevant to a discussion about austerity.

I lived through two minor recessions before this one, the big one. Even at my reasonably well-cushioned level, I think differently when times are hard. I can well imagine a poverty stricken person with a young family to support thinking even harder.

I've got a stricken palm tree in the garden. To dispose of it legally will cost me 200 Euros. I can borrow a chain saw for nothing and dump the bits at the nearest dump. And if I find a 50 Euro note on my way to the dump?

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

Do blacks commit more crime because of their social situation? Is a white man living in a predominantly black area any more or less likely to commit crime? Is a black man living in a prosperous white area any more or less likley to commit crime?

It is a fact that certain crimes are more likley to be committed by blacks.......... but not because they are black. The reason is they come from recessed areas & anybody living in those areas would do the same thing.

Re: Does austerity lead to crime?
 

As you say, "in some smaller communities" it might well be true, but rather than expect work to be delivered to your door, why not look somewhere else for a job. I am where I am because I moved looking for work, most of my friends and neighbours are "outsiders", people that moved looking for work. People moved all over the world when times were really grim, to Australia, USA etc. The situation in Spain is much, much worse, but many thousands of young Spanish are getting on their "bicicletas" and moving all around the world to find work, with UK being one of their top choices. Many come with little English, but are prepared to take anything to start with, including washing dishes. One forum I was just reading was advising someone how to ask for a job, it sounds ridiculous, but credit to them all for trying to better themselves.
puedes preguntar "Do you have any vacancies?", algo así como "du yu hav eni veikensis?" ;P :rofl: The problem for many in UK, they've had it too easy, it's far too easy to sit back and collect benefits and moan about how hard done by they are. The Spanish don't have that luxury and that encourages them to get up off their culos and get looking for work. Not suggesting it'll be easy, or they'll be great jobs, but thousands of Spanish Poles, Eastern Europeans have turned up in UK and done OK.