Declaring worldwide assets to Hacienda
Mar 14th 2013, 10:10 am
#436
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Granada Costa
Posts: 10,911
Re: Declaring worldwide assets to Hacienda
Wow! are you saying that things have changed that much?
It used to be the case that after 182 days, you were automatically considered tax resident - no exceptions!
You are now stating that this is no longer the case and that it is now more subjective - what a farce. Doesn't this simply open the door to people arguing that they need not declare in Spain as they don't meet these 'new' rules?
It used to be the case that after 182 days, you were automatically considered tax resident - no exceptions!
You are now stating that this is no longer the case and that it is now more subjective - what a farce. Doesn't this simply open the door to people arguing that they need not declare in Spain as they don't meet these 'new' rules?
It is all covered in the UK/Spain tax treaty and is particularly relevant to people who were previously UK tax resident.
Because the UK residency rule is 90 days or even less it is easy to be deemed tax resident in both countries. Clearly this cannot actually work in practice so the treaty rules come into play and even if you spend more than 183 days in Spain but also qualify in the UK under the 90 day rule then, based of your personal and economic ties with the UK then HMRC may deem you to still be UK tax resident.
The same applies the other way round and Spain may claim that you are tax resident if your centre of personal/economic interest is in Spain. A classic example of this is where your wife is tax resident in Spain then you will be deemed tax resident in Spain even if you don't meet the 183 day rule.
The residency rules are a lot more complicated than they seem. The UK residency rules have just got even more complicated as they have brought in a new Statutory Residency Test where you could end up tax resident after a lot less than 90 days.
http://www.globaltaxnetwork.co.uk/co...ence-test.html
Mar 14th 2013, 10:12 am
#437
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 253
Re: Declaring worldwide assets to Hacienda
So, although i dont consider myself 'tax resident', should i still declare all my uk assets just in case someone at Hacianda decides in 5 years, that i might have been just because i cant prove categorically that i was here for less than 183 days in 2012 ?
Mar 14th 2013, 10:22 am
#438
Forum Regular
Joined: Sep 2012
Location: El Paso
Posts: 80
Re: Declaring worldwide assets to Hacienda
We're talking about tax residency, read the thread
Mar 14th 2013, 10:24 am
#439
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Mijas, Spain.
Posts: 230
Re: Declaring worldwide assets to Hacienda
Wow! are you saying that things have changed that much?
It used to be the case that after 182 days, you were automatically considered tax resident - no exceptions!
You are now stating that this is no longer the case and that it is now more subjective - what a farce. Doesn't this simply open the door to people arguing that they need not declare in Spain as they don't meet these 'new' rules?
It used to be the case that after 182 days, you were automatically considered tax resident - no exceptions!
You are now stating that this is no longer the case and that it is now more subjective - what a farce. Doesn't this simply open the door to people arguing that they need not declare in Spain as they don't meet these 'new' rules?
Generally the 183 day rule applies for tax residency. However if you had say 'economic interests' in the UK, spent less than 183 days a year in Spain but your'vital interests' were here (such as your spouse and/or children), you could be deemed tax resident in Spain. Of course the double tax treaty is in place for these types of situations.
Last edited by Patrick2976; Mar 14th 2013 at 10:34 am.
Mar 14th 2013, 10:26 am
#440
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 977
Re: Declaring worldwide assets to Hacienda
No, nothing has changed.
It is all covered in the UK/Spain tax treaty and is particularly relevant to people who were previously UK tax resident.
Because the UK residency rule is 90 days or even less it is easy to be deemed tax resident in both countries. Clearly this cannot actually work in practice so the treaty rules come into play and even if you spend more than 183 days in Spain but also qualify in the UK under the 90 day rule then, based of your personal and economic ties with the UK then HMRC may deem you to still be UK tax resident.
The same applies the other way round and Spain may claim that you are tax resident if your centre of personal/economic interest is in Spain. A classic example of this is where your wife is tax resident in Spain then you will be deemed tax resident in Spain even if you don't meet the 183 day rule.
The residency rules are a lot more complicated than they seem. The UK residency rules have just got even more complicated as they have brought in a new Statutory Residency Test where you could end up tax resident after a lot less than 90 days.
http://www.globaltaxnetwork.co.uk/co...ence-test.html
It is all covered in the UK/Spain tax treaty and is particularly relevant to people who were previously UK tax resident.
Because the UK residency rule is 90 days or even less it is easy to be deemed tax resident in both countries. Clearly this cannot actually work in practice so the treaty rules come into play and even if you spend more than 183 days in Spain but also qualify in the UK under the 90 day rule then, based of your personal and economic ties with the UK then HMRC may deem you to still be UK tax resident.
The same applies the other way round and Spain may claim that you are tax resident if your centre of personal/economic interest is in Spain. A classic example of this is where your wife is tax resident in Spain then you will be deemed tax resident in Spain even if you don't meet the 183 day rule.
The residency rules are a lot more complicated than they seem. The UK residency rules have just got even more complicated as they have brought in a new Statutory Residency Test where you could end up tax resident after a lot less than 90 days.
http://www.globaltaxnetwork.co.uk/co...ence-test.html
Indeed and yes some time ago but a French guy loved horseracing and came often to Ascot and Epsom. Got involved in a horrendous divorce went to Ascot for Ascot week had a writ served on him. Held centre of economic interest UK houses going to racing etc.
I would wish to take a simplistic approach to the subject but cannot do so for fiscally resident in France but centre of economic interest could be held to be the UK where we have houses investments and the like and the family live there.
Overall it is a mess and Govt's across the world just want your cash. Whether they wish to net us small guys or the bigger ones is debatable but is it worth taking the chance?
Mar 14th 2013, 10:27 am
#441
¿Dónde estoy?
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: my paradise - Jávea
Posts: 13,330
Re: Declaring worldwide assets to Hacienda
there's lots of info here http://www.advoco.es/
Mar 14th 2013, 10:28 am
#442
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 977
Re: Declaring worldwide assets to Hacienda
It depends whether you are talking about residency, tax residency or domicile.
Generally the 183 year rule applies for tax residency. However if you had say 'economic interests' in the UK, spent less than 183 days a year in Spain but your'vital interests' were here (such as your spouse and/or children), you could be deemed tax resident in Spain. Of course the double tax treaty is in place for these types of situations.
Generally the 183 year rule applies for tax residency. However if you had say 'economic interests' in the UK, spent less than 183 days a year in Spain but your'vital interests' were here (such as your spouse and/or children), you could be deemed tax resident in Spain. Of course the double tax treaty is in place for these types of situations.
Mar 14th 2013, 10:32 am
#443
Forum Regular
Joined: Sep 2012
Location: El Paso
Posts: 80
Re: Declaring worldwide assets to Hacienda
On top of this you have the current zeitgeist of equating tax avoidance with tax evasion.
In relation to this thread, it certainly has future implications for what hacienda could do with all this collected information.
Mar 14th 2013, 10:38 am
#446
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Mijas, Spain.
Posts: 230
Re: Declaring worldwide assets to Hacienda
Well said. I know a bit beyond the scope of this thread, but if you were to look at the current trends with tax strategies of the UK & US I would suspect that in time other (bankrupt) European countries trying to push the envelope on tax residency (e.g. 90 days)
On top of this you have the current zeitgeist of equating tax avoidance with tax evasion.
In relation to this thread, it certainly has future implications for what hacienda could do with all this collected information.
On top of this you have the current zeitgeist of equating tax avoidance with tax evasion.
In relation to this thread, it certainly has future implications for what hacienda could do with all this collected information.
Mar 14th 2013, 10:51 am
#447
¿Dónde estoy?
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: my paradise - Jávea
Posts: 13,330
Mar 14th 2013, 10:51 am
#448
Retired and loving it!
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Ontinyent - Valencia region (campo)
Posts: 5,161
Re: Declaring worldwide assets to Hacienda
It depends whether you are talking about residency, tax residency or domicile.
Generally the 183 day rule applies for tax residency. However if you had say 'economic interests' in the UK, spent less than 183 days a year in Spain but your'vital interests' were here (such as your spouse and/or children), you could be deemed tax resident in Spain. Of course the double tax treaty is in place for these types of situations.
Generally the 183 day rule applies for tax residency. However if you had say 'economic interests' in the UK, spent less than 183 days a year in Spain but your'vital interests' were here (such as your spouse and/or children), you could be deemed tax resident in Spain. Of course the double tax treaty is in place for these types of situations.
It really is starting to sound like the differences between UK domicility and tax residency are being eroded.
Mar 14th 2013, 10:57 am
#449
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Mijas, Spain.
Posts: 230
Re: Declaring worldwide assets to Hacienda
I think changing domicile will always be alot more difficult than residency.