Climate Change
Sep 11th 2009, 10:44 am
#31
Banned
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Alhaurin de la Torre, Malaga Province
Posts: 704
Re: Climate Change
COCKROACHES AND MOZZIES !!! Nothing will ever make them go away!!
Jo xxx
Sep 11th 2009, 11:00 am
#32
On the road again.
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: On Top of the World
Posts: 17,507
Re: Climate Change
There could be Cockies the size of Dinosaurs and Mozzies as big as a Jumbo jet!
Pleased I wont be around to see it..................
Sep 12th 2009, 7:04 pm
#33
Banned
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
Posts: 7,653
Re: Climate Change
So let me see, CO2 is a greenhouse gas, but the CO2 that people produce doesn't have an effect, whereas the CO2 produced naturally does.
Jojo, do you actually know what a greenhouse gas is, and how it functions, and why different greenhouse gasses can represent a lot of danger, some danger or no danger at all?
Sep 12th 2009, 7:46 pm
#34
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,460
Re: Climate Change
Has anyone else wondered why "Global Warming" has suddenly become "Climate Change".
Thought I would look into it and the first site I found was this:-
http://theamericanscene.com/2009/07/...arming-stopped
Makes interesting reading.
Jim
Thought I would look into it and the first site I found was this:-
http://theamericanscene.com/2009/07/...arming-stopped
Makes interesting reading.
Jim
(1). The world is warming so global warming is a correct term, however the impacts on individual locations will be more nuanced and some may get colder - northern Europe for instance may become very cold as it is currently warmed by the atlantic conveyor (bringing warm water up from the equator)which may get "turned off" if global warming continues and melts too much arctic ice & changes the local salinity and temp - this is why Climate Change became a more relevant term as for some it will be colder in their locale even though for the globe as a whole it will be warmer.
(2). There are very few serious scientists with proper peer-reviewed research that say that warming is not real and is not in some degree caused by man-made CO2 (amongst other) gases. To give "balance" the media give them equal time, but in terms of real scientists they are a minute percentage. The poster-child for skepticism was Bjorn Lomborg (author of "Cool It") until those wanting MMCC to be false realised that he was not arguing against MMCC, just arguing for a different response to it.
(3). Global dimming is another phenomena that has caused some blurring of the data - basically up until the 70's the developed nations banged up shed-loads of sulphur (etc) particles from coal combustion (this also caused acid rain), they act to reflect the sun's rays back and "dim" the strength of the sun hitting the earth - pollution controls stopped these emissions and warming increased. Now we have China and India banging up huge amounts of particulates in the same fashion and this may have some impact, again dimming the impact of the greenhouse gasses we are emitting.
(4). The Ozone hole (& general ozone layer depletion) was caused by ozone depleters like CFCs - from fridges and spray propellants (& many industrial uses) - this allowed more UVB radiation through (skin cancer, cataracts). The Montreal Protocol was reasonably successful in reducing the use and emissions of ozone depleting substances.
(5). None of us on BE are going to be sufficiently qualified to understand the science and myriad of feedback loops that interact with CC. In reality a higher degree and several years working in the sector are needed to appreciate the full range of issues and their potential impacts.
(6). Taxing "bads" is actually a pretty good way of effecting change - whether it is cigarettes, landfill, sugar or carbon. The key is to also reduce taxes on good things like employment etc at the same time to keep the whole tax-tack in balance.
run out of time - need to head out
Sep 12th 2009, 7:51 pm
#35
Straw Man.
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: That, there, that's not my post count... nothing to see here, move along.
Posts: 46,302
Re: Climate Change
Where to start and how to make my ramblings coherent? Here goes.
(1). The world is warming so global warming is a correct term, however the impacts on individual locations will be more nuanced and some may get colder - northern Europe for instance may become very cold as it is currently warmed by the atlantic conveyor (bringing warm water up from the equator)which may get "turned off" if global warming continues and melts too much arctic ice & changes the local salinity and temp - this is why Climate Change became a more relevant term as for some it will be colder in their locale even though for the globe as a whole it will be warmer.
(2). There are very few serious scientists with proper peer-reviewed research that say that warming is not real and is not in some degree caused by man-made CO2 (amongst other) gases. To give "balance" the media give them equal time, but in terms of real scientists they are a minute percentage. The poster-child for skepticism was Bjorn Lomborg (author of "Cool It") until those wanting MMCC to be false realised that he was not arguing against MMCC, just arguing for a different response to it.
(3). Global dimming is another phenomena that has caused some blurring of the data - basically up until the 70's the developed nations banged up shed-loads of sulphur (etc) particles from coal combustion (this also caused acid rain), they act to reflect the sun's rays back and "dim" the strength of the sun hitting the earth - pollution controls stopped these emissions and warming increased. Now we have China and India banging up huge amounts of particulates in the same fashion and this may have some impact, again dimming the impact of the greenhouse gasses we are emitting.
(4). The Ozone hole (& general ozone layer depletion) was caused by ozone depleters like CFCs - from fridges and spray propellants (& many industrial uses) - this allowed more UVB radiation through (skin cancer, cataracts). The Montreal Protocol was reasonably successful in reducing the use and emissions of ozone depleting substances.
(5). None of us on BE are going to be sufficiently qualified to understand the science and myriad of feedback loops that interact with CC. In reality a higher degree and several years working in the sector are needed to appreciate the full range of issues and their potential impacts.
(6). Taxing "bads" is actually a pretty good way of effecting change - whether it is cigarettes, landfill, sugar or carbon. The key is to also reduce taxes on good things like employment etc at the same time to keep the whole tax-tack in balance.
run out of time - need to head out
(1). The world is warming so global warming is a correct term, however the impacts on individual locations will be more nuanced and some may get colder - northern Europe for instance may become very cold as it is currently warmed by the atlantic conveyor (bringing warm water up from the equator)which may get "turned off" if global warming continues and melts too much arctic ice & changes the local salinity and temp - this is why Climate Change became a more relevant term as for some it will be colder in their locale even though for the globe as a whole it will be warmer.
(2). There are very few serious scientists with proper peer-reviewed research that say that warming is not real and is not in some degree caused by man-made CO2 (amongst other) gases. To give "balance" the media give them equal time, but in terms of real scientists they are a minute percentage. The poster-child for skepticism was Bjorn Lomborg (author of "Cool It") until those wanting MMCC to be false realised that he was not arguing against MMCC, just arguing for a different response to it.
(3). Global dimming is another phenomena that has caused some blurring of the data - basically up until the 70's the developed nations banged up shed-loads of sulphur (etc) particles from coal combustion (this also caused acid rain), they act to reflect the sun's rays back and "dim" the strength of the sun hitting the earth - pollution controls stopped these emissions and warming increased. Now we have China and India banging up huge amounts of particulates in the same fashion and this may have some impact, again dimming the impact of the greenhouse gasses we are emitting.
(4). The Ozone hole (& general ozone layer depletion) was caused by ozone depleters like CFCs - from fridges and spray propellants (& many industrial uses) - this allowed more UVB radiation through (skin cancer, cataracts). The Montreal Protocol was reasonably successful in reducing the use and emissions of ozone depleting substances.
(5). None of us on BE are going to be sufficiently qualified to understand the science and myriad of feedback loops that interact with CC. In reality a higher degree and several years working in the sector are needed to appreciate the full range of issues and their potential impacts.
(6). Taxing "bads" is actually a pretty good way of effecting change - whether it is cigarettes, landfill, sugar or carbon. The key is to also reduce taxes on good things like employment etc at the same time to keep the whole tax-tack in balance.
run out of time - need to head out
Sep 12th 2009, 9:13 pm
#36
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: near Colmenar, Prov de Malaga
Posts: 5,174
Re: Climate Change
Thats where you and I will always disagree Jo, I am an optimist, I feel that this world is worth fighting for, its a lovely place and its the only one we have so I shall continue to do as much as I can.
I also think that attitude is a little arrogant Jo, it assumes that this is all here for us....
I also think that attitude is a little arrogant Jo, it assumes that this is all here for us....
Where to start and how to make my ramblings coherent? Here goes.
(1). The world is warming so global warming is a correct term, however the impacts on individual locations will be more nuanced and some may get colder - northern Europe for instance may become very cold as it is currently warmed by the atlantic conveyor (bringing warm water up from the equator)which may get "turned off" if global warming continues and melts too much arctic ice & changes the local salinity and temp - this is why Climate Change became a more relevant term as for some it will be colder in their locale even though for the globe as a whole it will be warmer.
(2). There are very few serious scientists with proper peer-reviewed research that say that warming is not real and is not in some degree caused by man-made CO2 (amongst other) gases. To give "balance" the media give them equal time, but in terms of real scientists they are a minute percentage. The poster-child for skepticism was Bjorn Lomborg (author of "Cool It") until those wanting MMCC to be false realised that he was not arguing against MMCC, just arguing for a different response to it.
(3). Global dimming is another phenomena that has caused some blurring of the data - basically up until the 70's the developed nations banged up shed-loads of sulphur (etc) particles from coal combustion (this also caused acid rain), they act to reflect the sun's rays back and "dim" the strength of the sun hitting the earth - pollution controls stopped these emissions and warming increased. Now we have China and India banging up huge amounts of particulates in the same fashion and this may have some impact, again dimming the impact of the greenhouse gasses we are emitting.
(4). The Ozone hole (& general ozone layer depletion) was caused by ozone depleters like CFCs - from fridges and spray propellants (& many industrial uses) - this allowed more UVB radiation through (skin cancer, cataracts). The Montreal Protocol was reasonably successful in reducing the use and emissions of ozone depleting substances.
(5). None of us on BE are going to be sufficiently qualified to understand the science and myriad of feedback loops that interact with CC. In reality a higher degree and several years working in the sector are needed to appreciate the full range of issues and their potential impacts.
(6). Taxing "bads" is actually a pretty good way of effecting change - whether it is cigarettes, landfill, sugar or carbon. The key is to also reduce taxes on good things like employment etc at the same time to keep the whole tax-tack in balance.
run out of time - need to head out
(1). The world is warming so global warming is a correct term, however the impacts on individual locations will be more nuanced and some may get colder - northern Europe for instance may become very cold as it is currently warmed by the atlantic conveyor (bringing warm water up from the equator)which may get "turned off" if global warming continues and melts too much arctic ice & changes the local salinity and temp - this is why Climate Change became a more relevant term as for some it will be colder in their locale even though for the globe as a whole it will be warmer.
(2). There are very few serious scientists with proper peer-reviewed research that say that warming is not real and is not in some degree caused by man-made CO2 (amongst other) gases. To give "balance" the media give them equal time, but in terms of real scientists they are a minute percentage. The poster-child for skepticism was Bjorn Lomborg (author of "Cool It") until those wanting MMCC to be false realised that he was not arguing against MMCC, just arguing for a different response to it.
(3). Global dimming is another phenomena that has caused some blurring of the data - basically up until the 70's the developed nations banged up shed-loads of sulphur (etc) particles from coal combustion (this also caused acid rain), they act to reflect the sun's rays back and "dim" the strength of the sun hitting the earth - pollution controls stopped these emissions and warming increased. Now we have China and India banging up huge amounts of particulates in the same fashion and this may have some impact, again dimming the impact of the greenhouse gasses we are emitting.
(4). The Ozone hole (& general ozone layer depletion) was caused by ozone depleters like CFCs - from fridges and spray propellants (& many industrial uses) - this allowed more UVB radiation through (skin cancer, cataracts). The Montreal Protocol was reasonably successful in reducing the use and emissions of ozone depleting substances.
(5). None of us on BE are going to be sufficiently qualified to understand the science and myriad of feedback loops that interact with CC. In reality a higher degree and several years working in the sector are needed to appreciate the full range of issues and their potential impacts.
(6). Taxing "bads" is actually a pretty good way of effecting change - whether it is cigarettes, landfill, sugar or carbon. The key is to also reduce taxes on good things like employment etc at the same time to keep the whole tax-tack in balance.
run out of time - need to head out
Sep 13th 2009, 7:39 am
#37
Banned
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Alhaurin de la Torre, Malaga Province
Posts: 704
Re: Climate Change
this is one view, and it isnt anti capitalist or of financial benefit to any organisation
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/glo...cam_index.html
Jo xx
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/glo...cam_index.html
Jo xx
Sep 13th 2009, 7:48 am
#38
Straw Man.
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: That, there, that's not my post count... nothing to see here, move along.
Posts: 46,302
Re: Climate Change
this is one view, and it isnt anti capitalist or of financial benefit to any organisation
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/glo...cam_index.html
Jo xx
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/glo...cam_index.html
Jo xx
Sep 13th 2009, 8:01 am
#39
Banned
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Alhaurin de la Torre, Malaga Province
Posts: 704
Re: Climate Change
Thats the trouble Matt, everyone has a hidden agenda, so who do you believe in the end???
I personally believe the only way is to listen to all the arguments and make your own mind up. I've pretty much done that and I'm sorry, but if there REALLY was a crisis, no one would be worrying about leaving standby buttons on or heavily taxing 4x4s, they'd be simply banning them! What about the global warming effects that all the wars are having?? Maybe we should be bringing all our paraphernalia back from Afghanistan, cos those tanks and armoured vehicles must be doing a bit more damage than my 100w light bulb!?
And then they're all the hypocracy.... I'll bet these world leaders, "captains of industry" even the green brigade hierachy who are all so worried about the effects "we're" causing on the planet dont think twice about having big cars, flying the globe on a whim, wasting resources..... cos actually they're making squillions out of it all!!
So therefore, I've come to the conclusion that if there really was a problem then the world leaders would actually DO something about it and not just pass the responsibility on to "the great unwashed"!
Jo xxx
Sep 13th 2009, 8:10 am
#40
Straw Man.
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: That, there, that's not my post count... nothing to see here, move along.
Posts: 46,302
Re: Climate Change
I work in the countryside, every day I do something thats outside, its always been my life and even I can see the changes. The weather patterns have changed, some species have thrived, others have almost faded into the background. You said the other day about extinction, saying that it had happened since time began, and yeah I agree, but that was natural selection. What is happening now is that man is destroying the forests at such an alarming rate that it is US that are now responsible for animal extinction. We are the cause, not nature, and unfortunately people who try and justify it by saying that its simply a natural process are saying that so they can sleep easy at night. Well thats fine, but I ask you this.... Are you proud of the state you have left the world in for your children? I ask that because ultimately Jo its your children who will have to live with the consequences of our mindless greed for resources. Its them who will pay for our lazy, half arsed switch over to more sustainable energy source.
I have seen the effect of mans impact on nature, I help clients establish habitats on their land and I have seen the effect of doing things more naturally and without chemicals and the results are shocking. Imagine that damage done by the airlines and multi national companies on the world while we sit back and pretend to ourselves that everything is ok!
Sep 13th 2009, 8:18 am
#41
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,460
Re: Climate Change
this is one view, and it isnt anti capitalist or of financial benefit to any organisation
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/glo...cam_index.html
Jo xx
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/glo...cam_index.html
Jo xx
Sep 13th 2009, 8:21 am
#42
Straw Man.
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: That, there, that's not my post count... nothing to see here, move along.
Posts: 46,302
Sep 13th 2009, 8:26 am
#43
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,460
Re: Climate Change
Thats the trouble Matt, everyone has a hidden agenda, so who do you believe in the end???
I personally believe the only way is to listen to all the arguments and make your own mind up. I've pretty much done that and I'm sorry, but if there REALLY was a crisis, no one would be worrying about leaving standby buttons on or heavily taxing 4x4s, they'd be simply banning them! What about the global warming effects that all the wars are having?? Maybe we should be bringing all our paraphernalia back from Afghanistan, cos those tanks and armoured vehicles must be doing a bit more damage than my 100w light bulb!?
I personally believe the only way is to listen to all the arguments and make your own mind up. I've pretty much done that and I'm sorry, but if there REALLY was a crisis, no one would be worrying about leaving standby buttons on or heavily taxing 4x4s, they'd be simply banning them! What about the global warming effects that all the wars are having?? Maybe we should be bringing all our paraphernalia back from Afghanistan, cos those tanks and armoured vehicles must be doing a bit more damage than my 100w light bulb!?
The problem is the tragedy of the commons - no politician wants to be unpopular by banning things if the other countries aren't also going to ban them or raise carbon taxes, this creates a stalemate - Kyoto for instance.
And then they're all the hypocracy.... I'll bet these world leaders, "captains of industry" even the green brigade hierachy who are all so worried about the effects "we're" causing on the planet dont think twice about having big cars, flying the globe on a whim, wasting resources..... cos actually they're making squillions out of it all!!
So therefore, I've come to the conclusion that if there really was a problem then the world leaders would actually DO something about it and not just pass the responsibility on to "the great unwashed"!
Jo xxx
Jo xxx
Sep 13th 2009, 8:28 am
#45
Banned
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Alhaurin de la Torre, Malaga Province
Posts: 704
Re: Climate Change
I will give it to you how I see it.
I work in the countryside, every day I do something thats outside, its always been my life and even I can see the changes. The weather patterns have changed, some species have thrived, others have almost faded into the background. You said the other day about extinction, saying that it had happened since time began, and yeah I agree, but that was natural selection. What is happening now is that man is destroying the forests at such an alarming rate that it is US that are now responsible for animal extinction. We are the cause, not nature, and unfortunately people who try and justify it by saying that its simply a natural process are saying that so they can sleep easy at night. Well thats fine, but I ask you this.... Are you proud of the state you have left the world in for your children? I ask that because ultimately Jo its your children who will have to live with the consequences of our mindless greed for resources. Its them who will pay for our lazy, half arsed switch over to more sustainable energy source.
I have seen the effect of mans impact on nature, I help clients establish habitats on their land and I have seen the effect of doing things more naturally and without chemicals and the results are shocking. Imagine that damage done by the airlines and multi national companies on the world while we sit back and pretend to ourselves that everything is ok!
I work in the countryside, every day I do something thats outside, its always been my life and even I can see the changes. The weather patterns have changed, some species have thrived, others have almost faded into the background. You said the other day about extinction, saying that it had happened since time began, and yeah I agree, but that was natural selection. What is happening now is that man is destroying the forests at such an alarming rate that it is US that are now responsible for animal extinction. We are the cause, not nature, and unfortunately people who try and justify it by saying that its simply a natural process are saying that so they can sleep easy at night. Well thats fine, but I ask you this.... Are you proud of the state you have left the world in for your children? I ask that because ultimately Jo its your children who will have to live with the consequences of our mindless greed for resources. Its them who will pay for our lazy, half arsed switch over to more sustainable energy source.
I have seen the effect of mans impact on nature, I help clients establish habitats on their land and I have seen the effect of doing things more naturally and without chemicals and the results are shocking. Imagine that damage done by the airlines and multi national companies on the world while we sit back and pretend to ourselves that everything is ok!
I dont altogether disagree with you Matt, all I'm saying is that global warming isnt something we've caused or even accelerated and the governments and industries have "jumped on the bandwagon" to make money! Why dont they do something aobut all the big and new power stations in India and China if theyre that worried?? Cos they're building those to enable the next generation to have what we've already got! I'm sure theres some issues behind the scenes with all that too (global warming would be a good way of stopping those nations from becoming a threat to the west??)
Yes, I believe we've caused pollution and we're wasteful, but when you think about it, we're only using the resouces that the earth has given us in the first place!
I'm also with "Barry Groves" (the guy who wrote that article) about food, chemicals, crop spraying, animal rearing.... cancer etc. Pharmaceutical industry propaganda. Those are also issues where I feel the government lies to us because there are "big bucks" being made!
Oh and by the way, those low energy light bulbs are now causing major concern cos the emit high levels of infrared and contain high levels of mercury! So thats the next thing that'll cause problems
This is all too much for a sunday morning Matt!! I think I'm gonna need a lay down !!
Jo xx