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Re: Cafe Opening Times
Originally Posted by wolf727
(Post 9379356)
The target market would definitely be for the Spanish. Why? Because the area it is in is more in a commercial residential area catered for the Spanish people. It has Spanish appartments above and all along the street with Spanish businesses.
Now...isn't that interesting? Why does Costa/Starbucks do well in Greece? Especially when no alcohol is served! ;) http://ewnbusiness.com/332/tapas-on-the-go-in-london |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
Originally Posted by wolf727
(Post 9379356)
The target market would definitely be for the Spanish. Why? Because the area it is in is more in a commercial residential area catered for the Spanish people. It has Spanish appartments above and all along the street with Spanish businesses.
Now...isn't that interesting? Why does Costa/Starbucks do well in Greece? Especially when no alcohol is served! ;) |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
Originally Posted by wolf727
(Post 9379356)
The target market would definitely be for the Spanish. Why? Because the area it is in is more in a commercial residential area catered for the Spanish people. It has Spanish appartments above and all along the street with Spanish businesses.
Now...isn't that interesting? Why does Costa/Starbucks do well in Greece? Especially when no alcohol is served! ;) I have never seen anyone able to nurse a frappe for a full four hours (and have leftovers!) like a Greek with a lot to talk about can. I think for fastest success, I would open a cafe that appeals to the local ways, to attract local trade. Vs trying to start a new trend with the hope it would catch on. |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe
(Post 9379392)
Starbucks opened up a lot of places in Madrid, and for a while they seemed to be doing ok (I think it was in partnership with VIPs). I think one reason they were popular was their no-smoking policy - prior to the new law few bars were totally non-smoking. Also businessmen found it a good place to meet. No idea how they're doing now. There was another coffee chain there called (I think) Jamaica Inn, but they may have served alcohol too. Oh- just remembered a place called Cafe y Te - they succeeded and are now trying to expand abroad, albeit concentrating more on tapas. But Madrid (and Barcelona) are big cities, and the market dynamic may be different there to where you want to open.
http://ewnbusiness.com/332/tapas-on-the-go-in-london I am at the moment I am just making tentative steps of what to do with the property in Denia and giving my mind ideas. I have a feeling though I will sell it and invest it in properties in Italy. Thanks for your input. |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
The idea of a cafe outlet in Denia is a sound one, but it needs a licence to sell alcohol as well because of local tastes, and I'm sure it's included in the opening licence at no extra cost.
if you've had five years in Italy (I'm envious), the Spanish ways are very similar. You seem to dismiss the idea of running a 'Brit' bar which is sensible because they no longer work - not even in Benidorm; the Brits have gone skint because of the exchange rate and other reasons. You don't sound very enthusiastic about Spain and I can't blame you, times have got very hard in the 'entertainment' industry. |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
Originally Posted by HBG
(Post 9379436)
The idea of a cafe outlet in Denia is a sound one, but it needs a licence to sell alcohol as well because of local tastes, and I'm sure it's included in the opening licence at no extra cost.
if you've had five years in Italy (I'm envious), the Spanish ways are very similar. You seem to dismiss the idea of running a 'Brit' bar which is sensible because they no longer work - not even in Benidorm; the Brits have gone skint because of the exchange rate and other reasons. You don't sound very enthusiastic about Spain and I can't blame you, times have got very hard in the 'entertainment' industry. What I would have been aiming for is a place that is quietly refined and elegant enough to attract business people and yet practical enough to attract the average street person - does that make sense? In other words a refined/casual place. My mother is Italian but I was born in Canada so I wanted to put in there a quiet cool elegance that would be attractive enough to bring in the business people but still casual enough that anyone with jeans would not feel out of place. Basically a place where the average business man wants to sit down in elegant surroundings with a drink and eat substantially enough that it is like a main meal so that he need not go into a full blown restaurant. Obviously I would be hoping for a drink Licence later on...then they can choose what wine or beer to have with their large sandwich/meals. I like to create the right atmosphere to set the tone. It has to have wooden floor boards because they have a warm elegant feel - not jarring on impact with the feet. So...the place has to have wooden floor boards, ferns and Roman pots, large paintings, mirrors, solid wooden tables and chairs, with brass fixtures everywhere, tapestries etc. I have seen this time and time again, that even when one is on a limited budget, in other words, when they are doing up a place, they seem to go out of their way to make it look "cheap" and distasteful for the simple reason that it was cheap. Even when one is on a limited budget and has to buy most things cheap, one can still create a sense of luxury and harmony that exudes quality just by choosing the right colours and materials to blend with each other. Instead, most often they choose garish toyish colours that clash with each other and choose materials that seem plastic, edgy and too sharp too sit on. I've seen it in the UK and Italy too. I've seen a cafe owner spent a large sum of money purchasing chairs and tables that are too metalic or plastic with sharp edges just because he wants to be modern. It all looks cold and uncomfortable. It gives the feeling that you are struggling in the cold edgy sharp chair and sooner or later you are going to jump out out of it. Then the decor was a bit garish - as if you are at a sleazy fair. With all the money he had he could have really improved the setting and possibly attract more customers just by harmonising the right blend of colours and materials. Choose materials that look refine, solid and harmonious - it need not be expensive. The trick is in the choice of colours and choosing solid looking materials. If the materials are cheap, then choose colours and patterns that do not look cheap - deceive the eye. When buying cheap materials, why do people have to therefore choose colours and materials that do look cheap! Anyway, sorry... I got carried away here! :rofl: |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
Originally Posted by meauxna
(Post 9379423)
The Greeks aren't big drinkers really, and it's a man-only thing traditionally (all my women friends would be having a real blow out to drink in public). And the traditional Greek kafeneio is a man-only hang out. BUT, ordering a coffee and lingering over it for hours is a national talent, and all can participate. So, coffee shops are very popular hangouts. They are also a way to show off 'better' financial status.
I have never seen anyone able to nurse a frappe for a full four hours (and have leftovers!) like a Greek with a lot to talk about can. I think for fastest success, I would open a cafe that appeals to the local ways, to attract local trade. Vs trying to start a new trend with the hope it would catch on. I now understand the culture you are describing in Greece - I'm getting the picture of what it's all about. I think your advice at the end is a sound and reasonable one. Anyway, I have feeling that I may sell it eventually and invest it in further properties in Italy. There is a lot to think about and the timing of it all is important. Many thanks for your comments. |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
wolf727, last comment, having been a cafe owner myself... go into the business if you LOVE it yourself. As my mom told me, 'You didn't buy a "business", you bought a j o b... "
:) You're spoiled for nice choices! |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
Originally Posted by wolf727
(Post 9379502)
Thanks for your reply. If I were to run a cafe in Denia it would definitely NOT be aimed at Brits. That's not the scene I would have been looking for.
What I would have been aiming for is a place that is quietly refined and elegant enough to attract business people and yet practical enough to attract the average street person - does that make sense? In other words a refined/casual place. My mother is Italian but I was born in Canada so I wanted to put in there a quiet cool elegance that would be attractive enough to bring in the business people but still casual enough that anyone with jeans would not feel out of place. Basically a place where the average business man wants to sit down in elegant surroundings with a drink and eat substantially enough that it is like a main meal so that he need not go into a full blown restaurant. Obviously I would be hoping for a drink Licence later on...then they can choose what wine or beer to have with their large sandwich/meals. I like to create the right atmosphere to set the tone. It has to have wooden floor boards because they have a warm elegant feel - not jarring on impact with the feet. So...the place has to have wooden floor boards, ferns and Roman pots, large paintings, mirrors, solid wooden tables and chairs, with brass fixtures everywhere, tapestries etc. I have seen this time and time again, that even when one is on a limited budget, in other words, when they are doing up a place, they seem to go out of their way to make it look "cheap" and distasteful for the simple reason that it was cheap. Even when one is on a limited budget and has to buy most things cheap, one can still create a sense of luxury and harmony that exudes quality just by choosing the right colours and materials to blend with each other. Instead, most often they choose garish toyish colours that clash with each other and choose materials that seem plastic, edgy and too sharp too sit on. I've seen it in the UK and Italy too. I've seen a cafe owner spent a large sum of money purchasing chairs and tables that are too metalic or plastic with sharp edges just because he wants to be modern. It all looks cold and uncomfortable. It gives the feeling that you are struggling in the cold edgy sharp chair and sooner or later you are going to jump out out of it. Then the decor was a bit garish - as if you are at a sleazy fair. With all the money he had he could have really improved the setting and possibly attract more customers just by harmonising the right blend of colours and materials. Choose materials that look refine, solid and harmonious - it need not be expensive. The trick is in the choice of colours and choosing solid looking materials. If the materials are cheap, then choose colours and patterns that do not look cheap - deceive the eye. When buying cheap materials, why do people have to therefore choose colours and materials that do look cheap! Anyway, sorry... I got carried away here! :rofl: There are at least two places in the main street, the Marquesa, which have exactly the formula you crave, and they are ultra successful. Denia is a rich town, an oasis in a poverty stricken country (of late). If your premises are in that location, go for it; if they're at Las Rotas or Les Marines, put the Se Vende boards up. |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
Originally Posted by wolf727
(Post 9379356)
The target market would definitely be for the Spanish. Why? Because the area it is in is more in a commercial residential area catered for the Spanish people. It has Spanish appartments above and all along the street with Spanish businesses.
Now...isn't that interesting? Why does Costa/Starbucks do well in Greece? Especially when no alcohol is served! ;) You need to decide what your really are aiming for, you have a few contradictions in your planning of the decor. Usually when people have a cafe/bar/pub in mind, they then look for the location. you already have the location, so you need to fit in with the surrounding area. First of all you want a Starbucks type coffee place, they are very successful and the main reason is that most of the coffee they sell goes out in a paper cup, that is in the UK. Their coffe is quite expensive but they are enourmous by Spanish standards, would people really want to pay for a loarge cup when most prefer a small one. And Spanish people are not really into "coffee to go". I get the impression that you want to have an elegant coffee bar with comfortable seating where people want to linger, hmmm? Depending on the size and the location of the place, you might not want them to linger too long, a couple sitting chatting for ages over a cup of coffee or two does not bring in much of a profit. If there are lots of business people around the area,you will have to drag them away from their usuall haunt, as they are creatures of habit. It is not impossible to do, but you need to think about the seating very carefully. These potential cuatomers will go there for breaks, think along the lines of a lot of single (I dont mean unmarried):) customers and 2s. you will need a space for the singles, what seem to work the best, is on the bar as in New york type diner, where the regualrs can have a little banter with the bartender and eachother. They will keep going back to the same place if they feel as though they are "known". You can get away with smallish tables, as there will be no big meals, dont make things too elaborate, becuase the people that only want a quick coffee will not feel quite right, they will feel that you want them to make a bigger spend, if you see what I mean. Spanish people like to have the eateries and drinkeries following the normal, been around forever style. A cafe bar/pasteleria, is for coffee and cakes, a jamoneria is for hams, cheeses and rustic sort of wine, a meson is to fill your belly at a reasonable price, and a restaurant is for better eating, and they would not dream of drinking the same wine as in the Jamoneria. Everything in its place, so to speak. You cannot do it all or have a place that does not look like what it is meant to be, if you understand what I mean. You know the kind of place where you look inside, and then ask the waiter if it is ok just to have a drink, because it looks too much for a simple coffee. As with every investment you need to think about the best way to make it work. Spend time there, look closely at what is around, a health centre, offices, Electic or water offices, a court, a shopping centre,a council building etc. Look at the type of people who pass by in the street, do they work there or live there? Although it is nice to have a place decorated in a style that you have always wanted, it might not be right. I wish you every success in this venture, and remember there are only three things that you need to make it really big, according to GETTY, I think. 1 Rise early. 2 Work late. 3 Strike oil.:rofl::rofl::rofl: I think I got carried away too. |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
Originally Posted by JLFS
(Post 9379568)
You need to decide what your really are aiming for, you have a few contradictions in your planning of the decor.
Usually when people have a cafe/bar/pub in mind, they then look for the location. you already have the location, so you need to fit in with the surrounding area. First of all you want a Starbucks type coffee place, they are very successful and the main reason is that most of the coffee they sell goes out in a paper cup, that is in the UK. Their coffe is quite expensive but they are enourmous by Spanish standards, would people really want to pay for a loarge cup when most prefer a small one. And Spanish people are not really into "coffee to go". I get the impression that you want to have an elegant coffee bar with comfortable seating where people want to linger, hmmm? Depending on the size and the location of the place, you might not want them to linger too long, a couple sitting chatting for ages over a cup of coffee or two does not bring in much of a profit. If there are lots of business people around the area,you will have to drag them away from their usuall haunt, as they are creatures of habit. It is not impossible to do, but you need to think about the seating very carefully. These potential cuatomers will go there for breaks, think along the lines of a lot of single (I dont mean unmarried):) customers and 2s. you will need a space for the singles, what seem to work the best, is on the bar as in New york type diner, where the regualrs can have a little banter with the bartender and eachother. They will keep going back to the same place if they feel as though they are "known". You can get away with smallish tables, as there will be no big meals, dont make things too elaborate, becuase the people that only want a quick coffee will not feel quite right, they will feel that you want them to make a bigger spend, if you see what I mean. Spanish people like to have the eateries and drinkeries following the normal, been around forever style. A cafe bar/pasteleria, is for coffee and cakes, a jamoneria is for hams, cheeses and rustic sort of wine, a meson is to fill your belly at a reasonable price, and a restaurant is for better eating, and they would not dream of drinking the same wine as in the Jamoneria. Everything in its place, so to speak. You cannot do it all or have a place that does not look like what it is meant to be, if you understand what I mean. You know the kind of place where you look inside, and then ask the waiter if it is ok just to have a drink, because it looks too much for a simple coffee. As with every investment you need to think about the best way to make it work. Spend time there, look closely at what is around, a health centre, offices, Electic or water offices, a court, a shopping centre,a council building etc. Look at the type of people who pass by in the street, do they work there or live there? Although it is nice to have a place decorated in a style that you have always wanted, it might not be right. I wish you every success in this venture, and remember there are only three things that you need to make it really big, according to GETTY, I think. 1 Rise early. 2 Work late. 3 Strike oil.:rofl::rofl::rofl: I think I got carried away too. I agree one hundred per cent with your commment about having to ask the waiter if it is okay to drink etc. I understand fully with that concept. That is why I said it has to be casual as well as elegant. I am not talking about it being so elegant that it smells of 4 or 5 class restaurant. I went just a little bit over the top with it but it is possible to have a place that is elegant but casual as well. Enough so that it can attract the business man, banker, lawyer but also the ordinary man in a shirt sleeve with jeans, and he's probably my Lawyer in Denia! I definitely agree with the seating and size of tables etc. I think you may have misunderstood me on that. The tables would not be very large because I am not doing restaurant food and as you say I want to make the turnover, but I would have smaller round tables and perhaps some rectangular ones for those who are sitting there proper. I already had in mind to do the New York diner style as well because this is a concept I am familiar with because...I was born in Canada. ;) So what I'm saying there would be a place for those who need a proper table but also there is a section where people can dine on stools and there would be narrow table-like ledges running along one side of the wall so that people can place their drinks there whilst standing or sitting on the stools. This would NOT be a restaurant but it would be a place where it would attract business people who would say let's go in here for a drink and perhaps have something to eat enough either for a snack or enough to fill their stomach. It would NOT be as elegant as a 5 star hotel that it would deter your average person in the street. That is NOT what I want. It would be a clean place but with comfortable harmonious surroundings that would attract both business men and the average street person. The seating would be more geared to have 1s and 2s. I would have - I don't know what you call it in English - sofas or cushioned benches that run along the wall, built into the wall, so that you can squeeze people in but it looks comfortable. Then you have the round tables with small chairs but not far away you can have people standing and chatting. It's a balance that needs to be struck. I agree the seating has to be looked at carefully. I already know the type of people along that street in that area. They are NOT holiday makers. This is more in the business part of the town with appartments above the businesses. So you get a lot of people who are from the flats and many who are working in businesses and those shopping. Okay...sorry I can't put everything here. I do know precisely your concerns and I am equally aware of them. Without going into too much detail but I have run a cafe before and I have run a clothes boutique years ago where I had to go to London to buy the stuff and bring it back to the shop. We as a family Italian/English/Canadian ;) have purchased properties where we had to start from zero turning a sweet shop into a tea shop then turning it into a full grown restaurant and now it is Leased out to tenants. We have two such restaurants that we lease out. What I'm saying here is that I am fully aware of the factors involved in deciding what potential customers are to be targeted and believe you me, I have done bar work, restaurant work, boutique work and a few other things. :rofl: I am already familiar with the concept of deciding what would work in a location. Personally, I like investing in property without the hassle of running a cafe or bar. Been there done it! :p I'm currently talking about Denia because we are deciding what to do with the premises. Do the hard work or cash it in and invest it in Italy. I prefer to do the Marc Allen way: "The Millionaire Course", a book he wrote and the other classic: "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill. ;) I still have a lot to learn... Thanks for your feedback. I like the way you think. |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
Originally Posted by HBG
(Post 9379562)
Don't be sorry, you are quite right. The trouble is, it has already been done,
There are at least two places in the main street, the Marquesa, which have exactly the formula you crave, and they are ultra successful. Denia is a rich town, an oasis in a poverty stricken country (of late). If your premises are in that location, go for it; if they're at Las Rotas or Les Marines, put the Se Vende boards up. No don't worry, I do not have the premises at Las Rotas and Les Marines. And I agree with your thoughts on those areas. Many thanks for taking out time to reply to me. |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
I think a Café de Indias style will attract the customers you´re looking for. (Business people but also people from the streets, as you mentioned before)
Café de Idias is a franchise, have a look here: http://www.infofranquicias.com/fd-28...De-Indias.aspx |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
In your situation, ie not planning to work and build the business up yourself, I would sell or rent it out, and not bother with all the hassle.
You seem to have no intention of living in Spain, and doing a projectlike that could take quite a while. Leaving the place empty gives you a bigger scope for renting / selling. As the saying goes if in doubt-do nowt. |
Re: Cafe Opening Times
Originally Posted by Jur
(Post 9380078)
I think a Café de Indias style will attract the customers you´re looking for. (Business people but also people from the streets, as you mentioned before)
Café de Idias is a franchise, have a look here: http://www.infofranquicias.com/fd-28...De-Indias.aspx http://www.infofranquicias.com/fd-16...ffee-Shop.aspx |
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