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-   -   Building Permission? (https://britishexpats.com/forum/spain-75/building-permission-475355/)

Pam Sarky Aug 20th 2007 11:03 pm

Re: Building Permission?
 

Originally Posted by scampicat (Post 5213763)
Thank you for this informative post.

The work will not get done then. I am not paying an architect. Some friends of ours had to pay 600 euros up front and the architect did nothing, and then they were not allowed to sack the architect!

Reading your post again, we have to have permission to paint our house inside? Unbelievable. As I say, I'd better let the town hall know I have bought a new sofa.

Anyway, I have learned a lot today. It's no wonder half the houses in our village are falling down if these are the hoops one has to jump through to do simple repair work.

Oh well, you live and learn.

Have to say, I am with you on this one. We have painted a couple of rooms and it never crossed our minds to get a permit/license whatever they want to call it :curse:

Hillybilly Aug 20th 2007 11:11 pm

Re: Building Permission?
 
It may be a pain in the a**e and many many people of course don't bother (esp for something as relatively trivial as painting) but...one definite advantage of doing things "legally" is that it's the only sure way you can offset the costs of property improvements against any CGT liability if/when you come to sell.

scampicat Aug 20th 2007 11:15 pm

Re: Building Permission?
 

Originally Posted by Hillybilly (Post 5213792)
It may be a pain in the a**e and many many people of course don't bother (esp for something as relatively trivial as painting) but...one definite advantage of doing things "legally" is that it's the only sure way you can offset the costs of property improvements against any CGT liability if/when you come to sell.

Yes, that is one point.

Anyway, thanks all for your input and maybe in a week's time I'll calm down and get the permissions. Otherwise the house can just fall down.

Now I'm off to another part of the forum to find out how I get a Spanish Driving licence, but this particular problem has been caused by British bureaucracy!

Hillybilly Aug 21st 2007 11:09 pm

Re: Building Permission?
 
IMHO I think the Spanish equivalent of Building Regulations are much more (too?) lax.
There is no equivalent of the Party Wall Act. Hence your neighbour can demolish the house that was once terraced to yours and leave your ex-party wall completely unsupported.
Insulation and ventilation requirements are downright poor.
Fire and escape regulations relating to 3 storey houses are virtually non-existent.
And be thankful there is as yet no equivalent of the FENSA requirement for replacing windows....;)

David Aug 22nd 2007 8:56 am

Re: Building Permission?
 
Hello Scampicat

You do NOT need to pay an architect for minor building work. You only need to employ the services of an architect for major building work.

The law in Spain says that any type of work on your property should have a building permit. This is very cheap and is usually only 3% of the value of the work you intend undertaking. So long as there is no structural work your work will be deemed minor and will probably only require the completion of a form at your local ayuntamiento.

If you get caught doing any work without the permit, your work could be stopped, you may be fined and will have to pay for the building permit in any case.

Stick to Spanish law it's not expensive and can save you a lot of problems.

scampicat Aug 22nd 2007 9:14 am

Re: Building Permission?
 

Originally Posted by David (Post 5220347)
Hello Scampicat

You do NOT need to pay an architect for minor building work. You only need to employ the services of an architect for major building work.

The law in Spain says that any type of work on your property should have a building permit. This is very cheap and is usually only 3% of the value of the work you intend undertaking. So long as there is no structural work your work will be deemed minor and will probably only require the completion of a form at your local ayuntamiento.

If you get caught doing any work without the permit, your work could be stopped, you may be fined and will have to pay for the building permit in any case.

Stick to Spanish law it's not expensive and can save you a lot of problems.

Thanks - our neighbours have given advice and help on some of the work, they are pleased we are tidying it up, I don't think they will be denouncing us.

Nevertheless we will probably apply for the licence :mad:as I believe expats should be seen to be trying to uphold the law even if Spaniards don't.

One British lady in our village has just been fined 1600 euros for not building in accordance with the approved plans.
However, her house is now as she wanted it in the first place, so maybe she considers it worth paying the fine and not getting caught up in the bureacracy to have what she wants. It probably works out cheaper than architect's plans anyway.

I'm not agreeing with this, but she is only doing as the Spaniards here do.

Mitzyboy Aug 22nd 2007 9:34 am

Re: Building Permission?
 
Its the same here .......... for internal stuff no one seems to apply for licences on the basis its cheaper to pay the fine if ever it comes to light. I guess the time its most likely is when you sell the place.

keithwalters Aug 22nd 2007 10:00 am

Re: Building Permission?
 

Originally Posted by Pam Sarky (Post 5213771)
Have to say, I am with you on this one. We have painted a couple of rooms and it never crossed our minds to get a permit/license whatever they want to call it :curse:

Ditto. We have also retiled our bathroom and kitchen (illegally, without planning permission). Unless they actually put photos on the original deeds how the hell would they know that the tiles have been changed?????

julie22 Aug 22nd 2007 10:22 am

Re: Building Permission?
 

Originally Posted by scampicat (Post 5220398)
Thanks - our neighbours have given advice and help on some of the work, they are pleased we are tidying it up, I don't think they will be denouncing us.

Nevertheless we will probably apply for the licence :mad:as I believe expats should be seen to be trying to uphold the law even if Spaniards don't.

One British lady in our village has just been fined 1600 euros for not building in accordance with the approved plans.
However, her house is now as she wanted it in the first place, so maybe she considers it worth paying the fine and not getting caught up in the bureacracy to have what she wants. It probably works out cheaper than architect's plans anyway.

I'm not agreeing with this, but she is only doing as the Spaniards here do.

Scampicat, if you have not already done so would suggest going to your local Town Hall and explaining the work you are doing.
We put a small roof (matching the roof tiles on the villa) on our lavadero, basically to stop the washing machine getting wet when it rains. Someone reported us and whilst OH was doing the work the police turned up!!
They were very good and informed us that they would be going to the Town Hall that afternoon to check we had got the licence (basically allowing us to get to the Town Hall that same morning and get the licence before they checked). As OH was doing the work himself, we just gave an estimate of the costs, which the Town Hall was OK with, the licence cost us 30 euros, so worth it in the end.

scampicat Aug 22nd 2007 11:06 am

Re: Building Permission?
 

Originally Posted by Mitzyboy (Post 5220445)
Its the same here .......... for internal stuff no one seems to apply for licences on the basis its cheaper to pay the fine if ever it comes to light. I guess the time its most likely is when you sell the place.

But as someone else has said, how will anyone know that you have tiled or painted (or even replaced plaster) on the walls? No-one will, will they?

Yes, they will notice a renewed floor and windows, I understand that and I can also see that as this can be deemed as structural work then that is why the approval is necessary. But to stick a coat of paint on a wall? Come on, they are just taking the pi$$!

jdr Aug 22nd 2007 11:30 am

Re: Building Permission?
 
All about licences and fines HERE on a pdf document pages 12-13-14. 50% to 300% of works value, or possible demolition as well as the fines.

Fred James Aug 22nd 2007 11:42 am

Re: Building Permission?
 

Originally Posted by jdr (Post 5220813)
All about licences and fines HERE on a pdf document pages 12-13-14. 50% to 300% of works value, or possible demolition as well as the fines.

These high fines usually only apply to major planning breaches.

For the sort of minor things we are talking about here they do not usually issue a fine, it is usually called a "legalisation tax" and it is usually the same as the cost of the building licence (which has to be paid in addition).

This is what was issued to a neighbour who built a pool without permission. He had a legal house and would not have been refused a licence.

Another neighbour who had a "house" that was classified as an agricultural building also built a pool without permission and received a demolition order on the basis that you cannot legalise what was not legalisable in the first place - strangely though, he received no fine.

As always, the rules vary from one town hall to another.

scampicat Aug 22nd 2007 12:10 pm

Re: Building Permission?
 

Originally Posted by jdr (Post 5220813)
All about licences and fines HERE on a pdf document pages 12-13-14. 50% to 300% of works value, or possible demolition as well as the fines.

What a useful document - thanks!

scampicat Aug 22nd 2007 12:15 pm

Re: Building Permission?
 

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 5220851)
These high fines usually only apply to major planning breaches.

For the sort of minor things we are talking about here they do not usually issue a fine, it is usually called a "legalisation tax" and it is usually the same as the cost of the building licence (which has to be paid in addition).

This is what was issued to a neighbour who built a pool without permission. He had a legal house and would not have been refused a licence.

Another neighbour who had a "house" that was classified as an agricultural building also built a pool without permission and received a demolition order on the basis that you cannot legalise what was not legalisable in the first place - strangely though, he received no fine.

As always, the rules vary from one town hall to another.

And it appears that common sense is used when fining you for your 'crime'.

(Slightly off-topic) However, neighbours of ours (who I hasten to add have not done any illegal building work), bought what was sold to them as a house (because the vendor lived in it), but are now being told it's a nave. It does have water and electricity connected but no mains sewerage. They have now been told that a road is going to be built alongside their property and because it is classed as a nave the developers have authority to knock it down if necessary!

They bought this property in good faith.

Beware of rogue Estate Agents and Lawyers get EVERYTHING formalised before parting with your money.

Rosemary Aug 22nd 2007 1:59 pm

Re: Building Permission?
 
When we arranged for the builder to remove our old windows and put in the new ones we asked him to sort out the licence and he put it down as part of the estimate. We do not have a copy of the licence so how would we stand if we sold the house?

Rosemary


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