Checkitfirst

Yes, there is a PDF file downloadable from the DWP website, and a consultation period, which ends a week before the first changes are implemented (plenty of time for evaluation then!) What is more important, as with any political document, is what it does NOT say. There is no mention of any arrangements for people already living elsewhere in the EU than UK, whether they are entitled to the same help in finding work (sticky ground here on Human Rights issues), whether they will be given any assistance with their forced relocation back to UK and the finding and funding of suitable accommodation and their continuing medical cover during this period. I have written to the Work and Pensions Secretary asking for clarification on a number of specific issues and will post his reply here. I expect to have to write a second letter because all you normally get on the first reply is a load of political gobbledegook specifically structured to avoid the issues raised.

masterbaits

Long post sorry , but I dont think any benefits abroad will be lasting for much longer , even the ones prior to 1994 will be shook up.If they can retrospect road tax , well?

Ehr are basic human rights , and they work both ways.If i was the government appealing any overturn in stopping benefits to expats I would legally argue this at the echr.

Argument 1.I dont think there is any hard worded mention of member states social security benefits being paid at all in the hr , and definately not externally to non dom citizens.That is for the nation themselves to decide on and supply to its residents.

The uk benefits are here to help its residents to "only just live" while in that particular eu state.It only has a responsibility to look after its "resident" claimants only , both by its own laws and basic echr directives.

Argument 2.Where you live "now" is where you should claim benefits from.

If only the resident's country is responsible for its citizens rights including benefits , even while there temporary, then that is the only place to receive benefits from...not the country of origin.

Argument 3.People often use the "free movement within the eu" as another mistaken basis to uk benefits rights abroad.There is no right to benefits to accompany that law/right , its only in prevention from moving or living within its borders by others.

If this right is based on freedom to travel through , to holiday , work , live in , and recieve social security for all its eu citizens equally within its member states.It must give the same "freedoms" , or rights , for all eu citizens when there as the eu national get.Including the right to claiming "that" nations qualifying social security benefits they're "currently residing in" , it is not the right of an external state to supply non resident benefits but the now resident one.

NOTE-What it doesnt say though in ehr writing is that it neither prevents benefits from leaving a country ie from being exported on leaving it to live elsewhere in the eu , or on the other side of the coin in allowing them.But I suspect the onus is legally on the country of residence argument and laws , not birth or where you came from.

Argument4.Theres no right mentioned about still being paid a former home nations benefits after leaving it.

Uk Benefits are calculated by them at the basic level for living for only in the uk home nation.Its unfair for the "home residents" of that eu country, in that by receiving the same amount , it would mean them actually receiving less economically than an expat claimant.By living in other member states and exporting benefits to these claimants , in countries with a perhaps a more affordable lifestyle , then it is punishing those that cannot do the same in the uk , which is a cruel and unusual punishment prevented in echr.Any Punishment , economically or otherwise , without trial is also prevented in ehr law.

NOTE-Inequality basis for appeal , based say on a expat spanish eu resident cost of living vs a uk one.

Opinion-The ultimate eventual response i can see from uk plc is , "If your registered in that country as a resident , then your a national there , therefore not a our responsibility anymore" , and , "you pay tax to live here , and only receive any benefits from it when you stay here".

I suspect the uk would have a population explosion of tanned brits , and a boom back on the housing market...well maybe thats darlings cunning plan.

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Voters recently kicked labour out of an established area of glasgow when they heard that ALL benefits were being shook up.The news reported it just before a byelection that they would now only be short term , or worse still , work to get them .... The same area was in the news for the lowest life expentancy record a few weeks later , my that was fast , result.

Checkitfirst

My claim would be that by changing the rules to have effect retrospective to a decision made under the original rules it would be placing me at a serious disadvantage to others in the same target group - i.e. the opportunity to receive free medical care, counselling, support and assistance in finding suitable work under the rules for which a sickness benefit was stopped, not because the illness had improved but because, and only because, the rules had been changed. Incidentally, my Military pension is not covered by the Double Taxation Covenant and is taxed in the UK. You also cannot use National, Resident and Citizen as synonymous terms. No crap about private health insurance please. For health purposes I am uninsurable due to the number of ailments I suffer from.

EsuriJohn

Your Military pension is covered by the Double Taxation treaty.

All Government pensions are taxed at source in UK thats what the treaty says. If you then export it, it is not counted by the Spanish tax authority at all (some local tax offices try to include it to push you into a higher tax bracket they are not allowed to do this).

In just the same way a Spanish soldier or civil servant retiring to UK would be taxed at source in Spain and not UK.

Checkitfirst

My point was, and is, that I am paying UK Income tax not Spanish, so I should have the same rights as any other UK citizen paying UK income tax, regardless of where I live. The term "Normally Domiciled" comes in here as well. This has nothing to do with where you actually live, but where you consider to be your home. With over 50 years resident in the UK, I can claim that as being the UK, although I am ordinarily resident in (but not a National or Citizen of) Spain

How does your argument affect loss of medical cover or not receiving the same help as those from the same target group because of a change in the rules, which is why I mentioned that I was still a UK taxpayer in the first place?

Is the UK Government going to leave thousands of it's sick citizens (some of whom will be war veterans) stranded throughout the EU without hope of medical cover and unable to afford or arrange repatriation because it has changed the name and the rules of its benefits?

scampicat

My husband with a Teachers' Pension on which he pays tax to the UK and also in receipt of Incapacity Benefit is in the very same position and I too agree about domicile; you can be Spanish Resident but the UK is still your home (domicile), especially if they take your taxes.

If his IB is stopped (I personally don't think it will be for the over 60s, maybe I'm too optimistic!), then in January 2010 I become a pensioner and he can be covered for medical care on my E121, but this is hardly the point and I agree with what checkitfirst says above.

EsuriJohn

When I arrive in January I shall be paying tax in both countries but I shall be ordinarily resident in Spain and domiciled in UK (very difficult to change that one ) but I will receive a personal allowance in each place and transfer my health care to Spain via the E121 so I should be about £1300 better off with better healh care if posters on here are to believed.

Checkitfirst

According to my gestor, who has done my taxes here for the last 3 years, for "Pensionistas" (no distinction between old age and Social Security), personal allowances are around €22,000 a year. I haven´t checked it, but I don't pay any tax on not much less, and I get the tax paid on my bank account interest refunded annually when I make my declaration (like self assessment).

Health care here in Spain is superb, but the philosophy of nursing care is somewhat different and may appear cold and distant and privacy does not have much of a priority. Relatives are generally encouraged to participate in care. If you don't speak good Spanish it is best to take an interpreter, preferably one who specialises in hospital consultations. A solid background in one of the healthcare disciplines will help as most of the words are similar.

Fred James

The only way the allowances could be that high is if a couple was taxed separately, had an income each of less than 9000 euros and were both over 75.

Otherwise the allowances would be less than 22000 euros.

There is also some misinformation on a number of websites that suggests that you do not need to make a tax declaration unless your income is over 22000. This is only applicable if you have had Spanish income tax deducted from it at source and could never apply to any UK income.

Depending on how you interpret the wording of the tax law the only way you can avoid making a declaration is if the joint income is less than 10000.

EsuriJohn

Yes that was what I was expecting and when set against a State Pension transferred over before tax there is no tax to pay. Now I only wish the UK taxman was as generous with pensioners, even with the extra granted for one year because of the recent cock up it only amounts to about £10,000 or €12.000 at todays exchange rate. Not very generous at all for one of the supposed biggest economies in the world

Checkitfirst

I don't know the details. I give my gestor €30 and all my paperwork, including a spreadsheet with a monthly breakdown of what I get paid here and what is taxed in the UK and he gets my bank account interest tax refunded - about €400 a year.

GlasgowGeek

This is the reply i got back from the DSS when i asked about it:
(DCS Exportability Team [[email protected]])

Debra186

Mine has been stopped and I've appealed it but I don't suppose you could tell me exactly which rule or bit of law I need to quote to them to justify our claim? I've just said that the European law states that we receive 'family benefits' from the country we are insured with, and that we are insured with the UK because my husband receives contributions based incapacity benefit from the UK. Is that enough?