The Most Advanced 3rd World Country on the Planet
Jun 23rd 2003, 9:35 pm
#1
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 50
The Most Advanced 3rd World Country on the Planet
A friend once told me that Canada is the most advanced third-world country on the planet. I didn't believe him at the time, but I'm starting to now.
Consider this. I am an experienced English lawyer, and desperately want to qualify in Canada so I can relocate and practice there. I made the necessary enquiries and found that I have to take a couple of exams to achieve accreditation of my English law degree. There is a self-study program in the UK for this, so no problem. I then discovered that, having got this accreditation, I have to article for 12 months in Canada in order to qualify as a Canadian lawyer. Bit of a pain, given the huge drop in pay I'll suffer whilst articling compared to what I'm currently earning in the UK, but it's short-term and I'm up for it.
As I currently work for the Government, my preference is for a similar job in Canada. I applied for a number of articling posts in different provinces, to start in summer 2004 (recruitment takes place 12 months in advance of start dates), the plan being to study and take the accreditation exams in the interim. These applications were as follows:
1. British Columbia (Court Service Articles): I completed a full application form, and this looked promising all the way down the line until they suddenly told me that they had changed their policy, and that my application was now disqualified on the grounds that I was already a "qualified lawyer" (!!!).
2. British Columbia (Government articles): I completed a very complex and involved written application form, and was granted an interview, to be held by video link, to be arranged at my local university. I made all the arrangements (not easy) and turned up on the appointed day. I was given 3 long case studies to read in the 15 minutes before the interview, which involved specific Canadian legal principles. I was then examined closely on my answers to these (and not much else!) during the interview, despite the fact that the interview panel (none of whom were lawyers in my field) were well aware that I had not yet studied Canadian law and had no chance of answering them correctly! They then followed this up with a written exam-type question, again on Canadian legal principles, that I was unable to answer for the same reason. The whole thing was a farce and, needless to say, I was not offered a post.
3. Alberta (Government Articles): I applied and was granted a "face-to-face" interview. This obviously sounded extremely promising, so I made special arrangements to travel to Alberta, attended the interview, and then travelled back home. At the interview (which seemed to go very well), I was told that I would receive a telephone call at home on the following Friday if I was successful. I spent a tense and miserable day waiting by the phone all day on the Friday; needless to say, it never rang. I still await the courtesy of any sort of response.
4. I also sent out CVs applying for articling to at least 15 private practice firms in different provinces. The 5 replies I have received to date have all been rejections without an interview being offered, and I'm still awaiting the courtesy of any sort of response from the rest.
In addition to the above, my sister, who is a police officer in London, applied to the Edmonton Police Service for a transfer there. They promised (in writing) to offer her a post pending immigration paperwork being completed. Right at the end of the application process, they returned her application form and application fee, saying they had changed their policy, and could now not accept applicants who weren't landed immigrants.
Canada: the most advanced 3rd world country on the planet? Certainly, if the discourteous and unprofessional way I have been treated is anything to go by, the answer has to be yes, and is likely to be so for some time to come.
I'm glad I found out before it was too late.
Discouraged.
Consider this. I am an experienced English lawyer, and desperately want to qualify in Canada so I can relocate and practice there. I made the necessary enquiries and found that I have to take a couple of exams to achieve accreditation of my English law degree. There is a self-study program in the UK for this, so no problem. I then discovered that, having got this accreditation, I have to article for 12 months in Canada in order to qualify as a Canadian lawyer. Bit of a pain, given the huge drop in pay I'll suffer whilst articling compared to what I'm currently earning in the UK, but it's short-term and I'm up for it.
As I currently work for the Government, my preference is for a similar job in Canada. I applied for a number of articling posts in different provinces, to start in summer 2004 (recruitment takes place 12 months in advance of start dates), the plan being to study and take the accreditation exams in the interim. These applications were as follows:
1. British Columbia (Court Service Articles): I completed a full application form, and this looked promising all the way down the line until they suddenly told me that they had changed their policy, and that my application was now disqualified on the grounds that I was already a "qualified lawyer" (!!!).
2. British Columbia (Government articles): I completed a very complex and involved written application form, and was granted an interview, to be held by video link, to be arranged at my local university. I made all the arrangements (not easy) and turned up on the appointed day. I was given 3 long case studies to read in the 15 minutes before the interview, which involved specific Canadian legal principles. I was then examined closely on my answers to these (and not much else!) during the interview, despite the fact that the interview panel (none of whom were lawyers in my field) were well aware that I had not yet studied Canadian law and had no chance of answering them correctly! They then followed this up with a written exam-type question, again on Canadian legal principles, that I was unable to answer for the same reason. The whole thing was a farce and, needless to say, I was not offered a post.
3. Alberta (Government Articles): I applied and was granted a "face-to-face" interview. This obviously sounded extremely promising, so I made special arrangements to travel to Alberta, attended the interview, and then travelled back home. At the interview (which seemed to go very well), I was told that I would receive a telephone call at home on the following Friday if I was successful. I spent a tense and miserable day waiting by the phone all day on the Friday; needless to say, it never rang. I still await the courtesy of any sort of response.
4. I also sent out CVs applying for articling to at least 15 private practice firms in different provinces. The 5 replies I have received to date have all been rejections without an interview being offered, and I'm still awaiting the courtesy of any sort of response from the rest.
In addition to the above, my sister, who is a police officer in London, applied to the Edmonton Police Service for a transfer there. They promised (in writing) to offer her a post pending immigration paperwork being completed. Right at the end of the application process, they returned her application form and application fee, saying they had changed their policy, and could now not accept applicants who weren't landed immigrants.
Canada: the most advanced 3rd world country on the planet? Certainly, if the discourteous and unprofessional way I have been treated is anything to go by, the answer has to be yes, and is likely to be so for some time to come.
I'm glad I found out before it was too late.
Discouraged.
Jun 24th 2003, 9:53 am
#2
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2003
Location: Ajax, Ontario
Posts: 149
I agree that it is extremely frustrating and am sorry that you are having such a hard time. At the end of the day you have to really want to go to Canada and be prepared to put up with all the associated hassles.
Many countries do not recognise the professional qualifications obtained in other countries, and you have to start all over again. It all depends on how much you really want to leave your own country and start again somewhere else.
I am a nurse with over 15 years experience. I am a sister in the UK and have lots of post-basic courses and a management degree. In Canada I have to take their nursing exam and my intensive care course is not recognised. I have got a job as a staff nurse and if I want promotion in the future I will have to take all the appropriate exams over there. The one good thing is that the hospital has recognised the years I have worked and are paying me at the top of the scale for staff nurses - otherwise we couldn't afford to go. To be honest I am quite looking forward to not having as much responsibility but am not sure whether it will be easy taking orders from someone else and not being the boss any more !!!
My husband is a tanker driver and transports hazardous goods. If he wants to work in Canada he has to take all his licences again, which will probably be very expensive. He is actually thinking of having a total change of career, so I have no idea what he may be doing this time next year.
It is very hard to move to another country and they are going to set on their own people in jobs whether you think it is fair or not. If you had to pay for all your university education and law college how would you feel if someone from Britain was given the opportunity rather than you ??? We can be just as bad in Britain when it comes to employing qualified people from other countries.
The whole immigration process is frustrating and there are obstacles all the way. I was offered my job last August and our work visas arrived yesterday. We will have to go through the whole PR process next year if we like it in Canada, it was difficult enough getting the work visas !!! They would not offer me a "permanent" job so we are taking a risk and having to go on work visas - we need 2 more points so working over there for a year will take us over the 75. At least if we don't like it we can always come back and won't get to the age of 50 wondering "what if?".
If you really want to go to Canada you have to persevere, maybe you will have to change career for a while. Only 2 of the many hospitals I contacted even bothered to reply and they reckon they are desparate for experienced nurses - especially in intensive care. Maybe it will be easier for you to find work in other countries, one of my friends got in to New Zealand without any hassles. Otherwise you will just have to appreciate what you have got over here (sorry if that sounds a bit harsh!).
Hope you sort something out
Gail
Many countries do not recognise the professional qualifications obtained in other countries, and you have to start all over again. It all depends on how much you really want to leave your own country and start again somewhere else.
I am a nurse with over 15 years experience. I am a sister in the UK and have lots of post-basic courses and a management degree. In Canada I have to take their nursing exam and my intensive care course is not recognised. I have got a job as a staff nurse and if I want promotion in the future I will have to take all the appropriate exams over there. The one good thing is that the hospital has recognised the years I have worked and are paying me at the top of the scale for staff nurses - otherwise we couldn't afford to go. To be honest I am quite looking forward to not having as much responsibility but am not sure whether it will be easy taking orders from someone else and not being the boss any more !!!
My husband is a tanker driver and transports hazardous goods. If he wants to work in Canada he has to take all his licences again, which will probably be very expensive. He is actually thinking of having a total change of career, so I have no idea what he may be doing this time next year.
It is very hard to move to another country and they are going to set on their own people in jobs whether you think it is fair or not. If you had to pay for all your university education and law college how would you feel if someone from Britain was given the opportunity rather than you ??? We can be just as bad in Britain when it comes to employing qualified people from other countries.
The whole immigration process is frustrating and there are obstacles all the way. I was offered my job last August and our work visas arrived yesterday. We will have to go through the whole PR process next year if we like it in Canada, it was difficult enough getting the work visas !!! They would not offer me a "permanent" job so we are taking a risk and having to go on work visas - we need 2 more points so working over there for a year will take us over the 75. At least if we don't like it we can always come back and won't get to the age of 50 wondering "what if?".
If you really want to go to Canada you have to persevere, maybe you will have to change career for a while. Only 2 of the many hospitals I contacted even bothered to reply and they reckon they are desparate for experienced nurses - especially in intensive care. Maybe it will be easier for you to find work in other countries, one of my friends got in to New Zealand without any hassles. Otherwise you will just have to appreciate what you have got over here (sorry if that sounds a bit harsh!).
Hope you sort something out
Gail
Jun 24th 2003, 11:48 am
#3
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,062
Originally posted by Gail
My husband is a tanker driver and transports hazardous goods. If he wants to work in Canada he has to take all his licences again, which will probably be very expensive. He is actually thinking of having a total change of career, so I have no idea what he may be doing this time next year.
It is very hard to move to another country and they are going to set on their own people in jobs whether you think it is fair or not. If you had to pay for all your university education and law college how would you feel if someone from Britain was given the opportunity rather than you ??? We can be just as bad in Britain when it comes to employing qualified people from other countries.
Gail
My husband is a tanker driver and transports hazardous goods. If he wants to work in Canada he has to take all his licences again, which will probably be very expensive. He is actually thinking of having a total change of career, so I have no idea what he may be doing this time next year.
It is very hard to move to another country and they are going to set on their own people in jobs whether you think it is fair or not. If you had to pay for all your university education and law college how would you feel if someone from Britain was given the opportunity rather than you ??? We can be just as bad in Britain when it comes to employing qualified people from other countries.
Gail
One of the modern realities is that you cannot expect to stay in the same career for life. Most people now have 3 or 4 careers during their working like so don't expect to hang on to the status quo.
Does this make Canada third world or ahead of the pack?
Being flexible and creative in finding a job is quite useful.
Jun 24th 2003, 2:26 pm
#4
Just Joined
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4
Canada (or BC at least!) is definitely a 3rd world economy. We cut down trees and sell the wood or wood pulp. We catch fish and sell it. We dig minerals from the ground and sell them. We have enormously expensive grandiose projects that come to nothing. We have plenty of government make-work jobs!
And criticism will be regarded as disloyal...
Regards
A.
And criticism will be regarded as disloyal...
Regards
A.
Jun 24th 2003, 2:36 pm
#5
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,062
Originally posted by atmbelg
Canada (or BC at least!) is definitely a 3rd world economy. We cut down trees and sell the wood or wood pulp. We catch fish and sell it. We dig minerals from the ground and sell them. We have enormously expensive grandiose projects that come to nothing. We have plenty of government make-work jobs!
And criticism will be regarded as disloyal...
Regards
A.
Canada (or BC at least!) is definitely a 3rd world economy. We cut down trees and sell the wood or wood pulp. We catch fish and sell it. We dig minerals from the ground and sell them. We have enormously expensive grandiose projects that come to nothing. We have plenty of government make-work jobs!
And criticism will be regarded as disloyal...
Regards
A.
Compared to the UK you're right. The UK cut the trees down and made farmland and exhausted the coal and minerals generations ago.
Jun 24th 2003, 2:44 pm
#6
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 50
Originally posted by flashman
One of the modern realities is that you cannot expect to stay in the same career for life. Most people now have 3 or 4 careers during their working like so don't expect to hang on to the status quo.
Does this make Canada third world or ahead of the pack?
Being flexible and creative in finding a job is quite useful.
One of the modern realities is that you cannot expect to stay in the same career for life. Most people now have 3 or 4 careers during their working like so don't expect to hang on to the status quo.
Does this make Canada third world or ahead of the pack?
Being flexible and creative in finding a job is quite useful.
Canada is certainly ahead of the pack in one respect; the discourteous and insulting way it treats professionally qualified people from other countries; not just lawyers, if what I've read on this forum is anything to go by. Even in this country, for all its faults, my profession generally treats fellow professionals from abroad with the respect they deserve.
Jun 24th 2003, 7:17 pm
#7
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,015
I can surely understand why they wouldn't give preferance to foreign nations when it comes to jobs, but I am surprised that they would make things so difficult when it seems to me that people with no skills and who can't even speak one of our official languages manage to get in here no trouble.
I thought we were crying out for nurses all over the country!
I thought we were crying out for nurses all over the country!
Jun 24th 2003, 7:54 pm
#8
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 481
Originally posted by flashman
One of the modern realities is that you cannot expect to stay in the same career for life. Most people now have 3 or 4 careers during their working like so don't expect to hang on to the status quo.
Does this make Canada third world or ahead of the pack?
Being flexible and creative in finding a job is quite useful.
One of the modern realities is that you cannot expect to stay in the same career for life. Most people now have 3 or 4 careers during their working like so don't expect to hang on to the status quo.
Does this make Canada third world or ahead of the pack?
Being flexible and creative in finding a job is quite useful.
I think that this is ridiculous and many qualifications in Canada are becoming meaningless eg MBA because too many people who don't actually need to are doing them.
Why should people have to keep changing career, I don't think Canada is ahead of the pack because of this. Also, why should people have to start at the bottom of the ladder when they come to Canada. All skilled immigrants have their qualifications checked before they come here and are accepted on that basis. Canada supposedly needs immigrants and yet they give them such a hard time.
Jun 24th 2003, 8:31 pm
#9
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 50
Originally posted by lizwil98
I can surely understand why they wouldn't give preferance to foreign nations when it comes to jobs, but I am surprised that they would make things so difficult when it seems to me that people with no skills and who can't even speak one of our official languages manage to get in here no trouble.
I thought we were crying out for nurses all over the country!
I can surely understand why they wouldn't give preferance to foreign nations when it comes to jobs, but I am surprised that they would make things so difficult when it seems to me that people with no skills and who can't even speak one of our official languages manage to get in here no trouble.
I thought we were crying out for nurses all over the country!
Let's face it, there can be only one reason why they make it so difficult for professional people to emigrate to Canada without the humiliation of having to start at the bottom of the ladder; it's a deterrent. They simply don't want professional people from English speaking countries upsetting their "closed shop" by taking professional jobs from Canadians. People with no skills and who can't speak the official languages are no threat to the professions, so they're welcome!!
Jun 25th 2003, 3:41 am
#10
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,015
I was a paralegal all my life and I worked with various English lawyers. Admittedly it was a while ago that I worked with them, so perhaps the rules have changed because they never mentioned a hassle getting into Canada.
I would have thought that someone who was qualified as a lawyer in England would have an enormous incentive to get out there and find a job, because they would be used to a decent income and wouldn't want to go without it. I cannot see a lawyer being a risk for sitting on welfare or otherwise being a drain on the Canadian economy. I would imagine that if they let made it easy for solicitors from England to emigrate to Canada - they would either find a job as a lawyer or else return to England if they couldn't find one.
Doesn't sound like its much of a risk so I cannot imagine why they would make them jump through so many hoops.
Did you apply in Saskatchewan? If so with what result?
One of my duties at my last job was to look after the resumes we received. If we received a resume from a secretary and we were not hiring, I either stuck it in my resume file or else - if it had grammar and spelling mistakes - I chucked it in the garbage! However, all resumes from lawyers or potential articling students got a letter saying "sorry we are not hiring right now." I always replied. It surprises me that you were treated so rudely.
I would have thought that someone who was qualified as a lawyer in England would have an enormous incentive to get out there and find a job, because they would be used to a decent income and wouldn't want to go without it. I cannot see a lawyer being a risk for sitting on welfare or otherwise being a drain on the Canadian economy. I would imagine that if they let made it easy for solicitors from England to emigrate to Canada - they would either find a job as a lawyer or else return to England if they couldn't find one.
Doesn't sound like its much of a risk so I cannot imagine why they would make them jump through so many hoops.
Did you apply in Saskatchewan? If so with what result?
One of my duties at my last job was to look after the resumes we received. If we received a resume from a secretary and we were not hiring, I either stuck it in my resume file or else - if it had grammar and spelling mistakes - I chucked it in the garbage! However, all resumes from lawyers or potential articling students got a letter saying "sorry we are not hiring right now." I always replied. It surprises me that you were treated so rudely.
Jun 25th 2003, 6:50 am
#11
Howling at the Moon
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Incline Village, NV
Posts: 3,742
Originally posted by lizwil98
One of my duties at my last job was to look after the resumes we received. If we received a resume from a secretary and we were not hiring, I either stuck it in my resume file or else - if it had grammar and spelling mistakes - I chucked it in the garbage! However, all resumes from lawyers or potential articling students got a letter saying "sorry we are not hiring right now." I always replied. It surprises me that you were treated so rudely.
One of my duties at my last job was to look after the resumes we received. If we received a resume from a secretary and we were not hiring, I either stuck it in my resume file or else - if it had grammar and spelling mistakes - I chucked it in the garbage! However, all resumes from lawyers or potential articling students got a letter saying "sorry we are not hiring right now." I always replied. It surprises me that you were treated so rudely.
Shouldn't that be "grammatical errors or spelling mistakes"?
Jun 25th 2003, 11:15 am
#12
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,062
Originally posted by discouraged
Canada is certainly ahead of the pack in one respect; the discourteous and insulting way it treats professionally qualified people from other countries; not just lawyers, if what I've read on this forum is anything to go by. Even in this country, for all its faults, my profession generally treats fellow professionals from abroad with the respect they deserve.
Canada is certainly ahead of the pack in one respect; the discourteous and insulting way it treats professionally qualified people from other countries; not just lawyers, if what I've read on this forum is anything to go by. Even in this country, for all its faults, my profession generally treats fellow professionals from abroad with the respect they deserve.
Maybe it's a reaction to Canada's colonial past of elitism and class distinction.
Jun 25th 2003, 11:48 am
#13
Forum Regular
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 35
Re: The Most Advanced 3rd World Country on the Planet
To say that Canada is deterring immigration of any kind is absolute nonsense. I don't know how obvious it can be --- just look around.
I am not a lawyer so I have no idea on how the qualifications would transfer -- I would imagine there are many differences between the legal aspects of the 2 countries. Perhaps experience has shown that the skill set does not transfer well?
Is it wrong for Canadian companies to prefer Canadian candidates?
Companies (and I would suggest legal firms fit the bill as well) are running a business and looking for the best candidates. When you are hiring you look at potential but also consider the risk compared to the investment. You know yourself and your background but all they know is what you tell them.
It is also obvious that your world travel is limited if you consider Canada a 3rd world country. It really diminishes a lot of the problems around the world at the moment with political unrest, starvation, disease, etc.
As far as them being "rude" -- no excuse -- however, welcome to the world of job search, no matter what country you are in.
I am not a lawyer so I have no idea on how the qualifications would transfer -- I would imagine there are many differences between the legal aspects of the 2 countries. Perhaps experience has shown that the skill set does not transfer well?
Is it wrong for Canadian companies to prefer Canadian candidates?
Companies (and I would suggest legal firms fit the bill as well) are running a business and looking for the best candidates. When you are hiring you look at potential but also consider the risk compared to the investment. You know yourself and your background but all they know is what you tell them.
It is also obvious that your world travel is limited if you consider Canada a 3rd world country. It really diminishes a lot of the problems around the world at the moment with political unrest, starvation, disease, etc.
As far as them being "rude" -- no excuse -- however, welcome to the world of job search, no matter what country you are in.
Jun 25th 2003, 12:59 pm
#14
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 481
Re: The Most Advanced 3rd World Country on the Planet
Originally posted by JnQn
To say that Canada is deterring immigration of any kind is absolute nonsense. I don't know how obvious it can be --- just look around.
I am not a lawyer so I have no idea on how the qualifications would transfer -- I would imagine there are many differences between the legal aspects of the 2 countries. Perhaps experience has shown that the skill set does not transfer well?
Is it wrong for Canadian companies to prefer Canadian candidates?
Companies (and I would suggest legal firms fit the bill as well) are running a business and looking for the best candidates. When you are hiring you look at potential but also consider the risk compared to the investment. You know yourself and your background but all they know is what you tell them.
It is also obvious that your world travel is limited if you consider Canada a 3rd world country. It really diminishes a lot of the problems around the world at the moment with political unrest, starvation, disease, etc.
As far as them being "rude" -- no excuse -- however, welcome to the world of job search, no matter what country you are in.
To say that Canada is deterring immigration of any kind is absolute nonsense. I don't know how obvious it can be --- just look around.
I am not a lawyer so I have no idea on how the qualifications would transfer -- I would imagine there are many differences between the legal aspects of the 2 countries. Perhaps experience has shown that the skill set does not transfer well?
Is it wrong for Canadian companies to prefer Canadian candidates?
Companies (and I would suggest legal firms fit the bill as well) are running a business and looking for the best candidates. When you are hiring you look at potential but also consider the risk compared to the investment. You know yourself and your background but all they know is what you tell them.
It is also obvious that your world travel is limited if you consider Canada a 3rd world country. It really diminishes a lot of the problems around the world at the moment with political unrest, starvation, disease, etc.
As far as them being "rude" -- no excuse -- however, welcome to the world of job search, no matter what country you are in.
When your skills have been assessed and you have had to pass a points test to come in to Canada which is only passable if you are very highly skilled and have experience then why should you have to face a really tough battle to find work or start from the bottom again. To pass the points test, in most cases you need to either have many years experience or be educated to post graduate level with at least a few years experience. Skilled immigrants have had their education and experience verified before they come to Canada so why they need to have them be further assessed or be treated like second class citizens I do not know.
It is this attitude of superiority which completes puts me off the country and no I don't believe it is something which should be accepted. Canada needs immigrants after all.
Jun 25th 2003, 2:21 pm
#15
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 50
Re: The Most Advanced 3rd World Country on the Planet
Originally posted by JnQn
To say that Canada is deterring immigration of any kind is absolute nonsense. I don't know how obvious it can be --- just look around.
To say that Canada is deterring immigration of any kind is absolute nonsense. I don't know how obvious it can be --- just look around.
However, when such highly-skilled applicants do go to the considerable trouble of applying, they quickly discover that Canada's need isn't really that urgent. If it was, would it really want to delay the application of their skills by requiring them to pass Canadian exams (often for qualifications of a lower standard than those they already hold) and jump through whatever other hoops happen to take their fancy at the time; and having done so, demean them and insult their professionalism by expecting them to start at the bottom of the pile?
The only conclusion I can reach is that Canada is not serious about wanting skilled people from abroad. If it was, it wouldn't give them such a hard time and treat them so appallingly.